Author Topic: .50 cal gunnery (Read 3920 times)

Wanker · « **on:** March 31, 2000, 09:29:00 AM »

Spent the night in a Pony yesterday, and to me the damage done by the .50's seemed spot on. I couldn't just take a snap-shot to kill, I had to actually pour a couple seconds worth of ammo into a con for it to lose enough parts to kill it. It reminded me of the gun camera footage I've seen from Mustangs.

The cannons on the other planes seem a wee bit strong right now, though. But I think we're close to being able to call it "right".

Agree or disagree?

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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

Hangtime · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2000, 09:43:00 AM »

Is this a troll banana?? This subject is possibly the most controversial on this BBS. Expect some flames with this one. God bless you and good luck; Sir.

As to the subject.. I disagree. 2000 + sorties in P51D to date. These guns are undermodeled; and inefective in snapshot situations.

But then; you knew that.

Hang

Vermillion · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2000, 10:04:00 AM »

Disagree, But I've said my piece.

Hell, next tour I will just fly the cannon birds like everyone else. Its not worth the effort of trying to get the .50s competitive.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Toad · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2000, 10:04:00 AM »

Hang:

Once again, though, we come to the question of whether the discussion is over the ballistics or the damage model.

I think there should be a clear distinction here.

So, before this latest fish fry starts

, let's all try to remember that.

Ballistics is relatively easy physics. I think HT and Pyro HAVE the necessary ballistic data and programs.

Damage is more subjective. All I'm going to say is "go for realism". Any of these weapons, applied properly, are devestating to aluminum airframes.

<sits back, drags cooler over to act as armrest, pops umbrella for shade, opens beer>

Wanker · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2000, 10:29:00 AM »

Hehe, well actually Hang, I didn't intend it to be a troll, but it may sound like one. I seriously thought that the guns were effective. It could be that my past experience in Warbirds is coloring my opinion.

Or it could be that I'm subconsciously trying to get everyone to accept the gunnery with just a few tweaks, so we can move onto strat discussions.

When I first started flying AH I kept thinking "Yer kidding me, these guns damage like howitzer shells". And I still think the cannons do perform like that. But the 50's feel right to me. I know nothing about physics, and I wasn't alive during WW2, so it's just one dweeb's opinion.

To be honest, I had more kills last night in a Pony than I ever get in a night's worth of being a Spit Dweeb.

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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

Baddawg · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2000, 11:00:00 AM »

I have been flying the P-51D for about 1 week vrs the (shudder) F4U-1C i flew the week before.
At first i thought oh these .50s are pathetic. Oops, my mistake it was my gunnery that was pathetic.

Any time i took the snapshot or a low percentage shot,i was left with a feeling of definite underpowered guns.

But when i had a good firing solution the .50s were devestating.

Further film review revealed to me that the key is concentration of fire in a single area.
Having your convergence set properly helps.

3 memorable sorties(not vulches) i had last night were 4 kills 2 assists, 5 kills , 3kills 2 of which were B17s!which I concentrated fire on the tail section where the tail meets the fusulage.Quite effective really but dangerous.

Since i have flown the P-51D i have had many 3+ kill sorties in tough gun shooting turning situations.
But snap shots are another matter eg.i filled a 109 full of lead on 3 high G snap shots with no damage to the 109 at all that i could visualize. Not the first time that has happened when i took low percentage shots

Now in terms of "realism" the kills i had attained on those 3 sorties, any pilot would be happy with.
Does any one know what the single sortie kill record is for a P-51 in WW2? (5)?

In version 1.02 the tweaking of ballistics might make a difference in the .50 cal during snap shots.
However untill i see a change from that i still believe my gunnery is to blame and not the guns.
The Ponys a pretty good ride the guns are adequate,its the arguement that might be overmodeled

.

------------
Some of my best Flying
is done AFK

CANNON · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2000, 12:28:00 PM »

Imagine an f4u-1c with the speed of a p51. I dont think any of us want a one plane sim.

BTW. In reading comments, from the htc guys, about ver 1.02. I see the word bullit mentioned, in talking about drop, but not cannon. With the flat trjectory the P51 already has this improvement should help.

Soulyss · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2000, 12:29:00 PM »

I believe the single mission record for a p51 pilot in WW2 was 6 Baddwag, but don't quote me on it.

As far as the damage on the .50s I've felt for a while now that it's just about right on. I think it might take a little more effort to set up the shot and maybe a little more skill to concentrate that fire on the bad guys but if you can set up a tracking shot those 6 .50's on the P51 can saw someone in two in short order.

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"Sorry can't talk now, gotta shoot."
-Bud Anderson

[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 03-31-2000).]

Pyro · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2000, 12:50:00 PM »

Visual Aid. Left to right: .30-06 US, .303 British, 12.7mm Russian, .50 Cal US, 13mm MG 131, 15mm MG 151, 20mm MG 151/20, 20mm Hispano, 23mm VYa, 30mm MK 108, 30mm MK 103, 37mm BK 37.

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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Perfect plans, aren't.

Vermillion · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2000, 01:04:00 PM »

LOL!! Actually I have a very similar display sitting on my desk at work.

5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x56mm (.308), .50 cal, 20mm, 40mm AAA shell.

Thank heavens most of my co-workers are gun people, or I could get in "political correctness" trouble.

But then again I live in a where owning weapons is a way of life.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Jinx · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2000, 01:08:00 PM »

I think it has more to do with the way damage is calculated then anything else. In the sim I believe the damage is calculated with ‘hit points’ in some way. It takes X amount of ‘hit points’ to make damage show up on a component. A single cannon shell has the ‘hit points’ do damage, but it would in most cases take multiple hits from the .50s on the same component to make any damage show. With moving targets, conversion and the dispersion modeled in the ballistics, it would take a lot of hits on a plane to get enough ‘hit points’ into one component and get it over the damage limit.

The fix for this might be to let every round do damage, just not the same amount

. Make damage accumulative so that every component can have 0-100% damage and even a .303 round would add a bit of drag to a wing or make the elevator a bit less effective for example. That way we would see damage, even if it is not catastrophic.

Thoughts?

-Jinx

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www.flyingpigs.com

[This message has been edited by Jinx (edited 04-01-2000).]

Baddawg · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2000, 01:12:00 PM »

I have heard that you can buy the 37mm BK 37.
Its available at your local Love Shop.
hahaha i couldnt help myself. But you wont find it in the visual aid section .
Roflmao

ps thanks Pyro

funked · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2000, 01:26:00 PM »

The Luftwaffles should have a look at the MG 151 round next to the Hispano round. Should answer their questions right there.

Hangtime · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2000, 05:08:00 PM »

Hmmmmmmmmm.... ballistics or damage model.

Damn good question. As far as 'ballistics'... no problem there; best I've ever seen. As others have noted; low AOT tracking shots with some time on the target produce the desired results.

Put those .50's into a snap shot situation and yah get nada... zip, uhgats.

Tie that to the damage mapping; and observation data from hitting targets at low AOT with time on target and we may have our culprit... the damage model as noted in the posts above.

The results are... the EFFECT of the .50's are undermodeled.

Full circle??

Hang

weazel · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2000, 06:43:00 PM »

Lifted from other thread/
<SNIP>

Mg151/15 (15mm)
ROF: 700 rpm Muzzle vel: 2800 fps.
RW: 57 grams

<SNIP>
And some data I found on the 109f3

Bf.109F-3
Dimensions: Span 32 ft 6.5 in.; Length 29 ft 0.5 in.; Height 8 ft. 6 in.; Wing Area 174 sq ft.
Powerplant Daimler-Benz DB 601E, twelve cylinder inverted-Vee liquid cooled engine of 1,300 h.p.
Armament One 15 mm MG 151 cannon mounted between engine cylinder banks and firing through propellor spinner, with 200 rounds per gun. Two 7.92 mm MG 17 machine guns mounted in a light alloy cradle on top of engine and firing through blast troughs in upper cowling with 500 rounds per gun.
Weights Empty 4,300 lbs, loaded 6,054 lbs.
Performance Maximum speed 390 mph at 22,000 ft. Cruising speed, 310 mph at 16,500 ft. Maximum climb rate 3,320 ft./min. at 5,000 ft. Service ceiling 37,000 ft. Normal range 440 miles, endurance 1 hr. 24 mins.

Was the MG 151/15 ever used in the 109f4? This looks like an excellent weapon for fighter vs fighter in the arena. I would gladly trade the extra punch of the 20mm for the higher muzzle velocity of the 15 mm cannon. If it was used in the 109f4 could it be added as a loadout option Pyro?

Author Topic: .50 cal gunnery (Read 3920 times)

CANNON

funked