Dweeb Count

[Yeager]

The Chog is very nearly the perfect match between aircraft performance and armament performance.

It is a lean, mean killing machine.
Other planes with the same armament are lethal for sure but the Chog has the curves and moves none of the others have.

In the hands of a highly skilled computer pilot, the Chog ranks as the best available choice in AH.  It is a monster.

Perk it!

Yeager

[NATEDOG]

I got one for ya:
Dweebcalling-Dweeb

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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-

".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "

[Toad]

Sea Wulfe,

I was trying to keep the clip brief. Here's a bit more background. (Nice book, btw.) Blackburn went to pick up the first F4U-1 for his squadron VF-17. He was the CO.

Until that time, he had NO time in F4U's. Zip, zilch, nada. His squadron was "working up" in F4F Wildcats and that is what he had been flying. The Navy switched VF-17 over to Corsairs, one of the first two squadrons to get them I believe. He put in full right rudder out of habit and almost ran off the runway in the Corsair.

Sorry for the confusion.

Ram, you are "setting yourself up" with those reasons.

Some of your favorite LW planes were also built on a rather limited basis and not built "massively" when compared to other variants of the same type. Those "limited variants" are going to be "far more common than the "massively built" ones. Unhistorical. Resists immersion.  

Sooner or later HTC is going to make sortie stats available, due to all this commotion. What will you do when you find a plane that has lots of kills has LOW sortie totals? Will sort of shoot your "far more common" argument in the foot wouldn't it?

Keep making your "immutable truth" statements though. I'm sure I'll enjoy it when you get constantly reminded of them...after they prove wrong.    

[DRILL]

 ah the c47   >>>carries lots of beer  

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 DRILL                     CO 457TH

[Creamo]

Ahhhh, the endless moaning of the nik and chog.

 I wish that everyone for one week would exchange them for Spits and Typhoons. As they decimated the arena, then what would the LuftWhiners do?

Anywho, here's Saburo Sakai's account of flying the Shiden (lightning in Japanese) codenamed by the Americans "George" aka. Niki

"The battle exploded the moments the Hellcats came within range. Two flights of Shidens (thats your uber nik ram) screamed down 1,500 feet above the Grummans. Sugita plummeted like a stone. Coming out of his dive, he rolled in against a Hellcat and snapped out a burst. The four cannon proved the effectiveness in dramatic fashion. Flames burst from the fighters engine as it carrened wildly through the air,  out of control.

He goes on to kill 2 more in the same fashion, one describing its incredible speed and climbing ability.

Also note this-

Later we received copies of an American report of the air battle, which registered considerable surprise of the high performance of the Shiden fighter. The American pilots were shocked at the new planes ability to withstand tremendous damage from the heavy machine guns of the Hellcats.

With that said, I'd say HTC has done a great job in the modelling of weapons and plane strengths.

Countless stories by Sakai describe damage nearly to a T in AH. In fact, reading how the fighters fought was dead on as well. They had to fight B17's in Zero's and had a terrible time trying to kill them. That's damn accurate here indeed!

My point is, if your complaining about cannons, your only realistic squeak would be they were on plane variants introduced in very small numbers, ala F4U-C's. Still , so what? edit- See Toads post on that one, indeed-

If that bothers you, the MA might not be for you, and HTC has a neat HTH feature that you can enable specific fighters and have all historical matchups you can take till your LW leather panties are all sweaty.

That, or wait for a Historical Arena, I think that will be introduced one day. While waiting, you can buy that new russian sim, and read the WWIIOL bbs. I even saw ww2ol may ship this Christmas, so there ya go.


Personally, I seriously cannot wait to HO a Dora in Chog. Guys will seriously have mental breakdowns.

[This message has been edited by Creamo (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Lance]

   

Because while the typhoon averages 3% of the MA kills, the Chog averages 20%.

And you, Ram, are the person responsible for 69.85% of all the whiny posts on this board, and whiny posts make up over one third of all posts here.  I am tired of reading threads where you invariably weigh in with the same opinion you stated in 5 other posts that day.  Because this is ruining my board enjoyment (sniff sniff), I think it only right that HTC remove you and any whiners from the BBS until such time as this whine-to-legitimate-post ratio stabilizes, or until I have attained a level of maturity to where I am able to simply enjoy the BBS for what it is and irregardless of what others choose to do here...

Er... scratch that last part...

Letting you post in the first place was the biggest mistake HTC has ever made in their development of these boards, and unless they take drastic action to correct this, this BBS will continue to have one foot in the grave and the other on a bananna peel.  I am getting sick and tired of seeing nothing but threads full of whines, and unless this changes soon, I am outta here!  I've really just been hanging out here waiting for a game with a less whiny BBS anyway (can you say WWII Online?  Il2?).  And when I leave, then you whiners will be sorry!  Because you will all be struck with a sudden burst of insight that I was RIGHT, but by then it'll be too late, because there will be no one left for you to whine to!  Aieeee!  AIEEEEEEE!!!! AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!  YOU BETTER NOT COME TO AMERICA OR I WILL  KEEEEEL YOU!!!

   

[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 02-12-2001).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Sooner or later HTC is going to make sortie stats available, due to all this commotion. What will you do when you find a plane that has lots of kills has LOW sortie totals? Will sort of shoot your "far more common" argument in the foot wouldn't it?

Far from it. Lets see:

Total F4U1 production in WWII was roughly 11000 aircraft. From those 200 were F4U1-c

Total Fw190 fighter production: 20000 aircraft (and some sources say this is a gross over estimation). from this, 5000 were F versions (ground attack), and 700 Fw190D9s.I should do this with the 15000 figure and not with the 20000, but only for your joy and excitement, we will do it with the 20000 number.

% of Chog production compared with the total F4U1 production run: 1.8% rougly.

% of D9 production compared with the total Fw190 run: 3.5%

So we see that the D9 was DOUBLE the % than the Chog. And that taking the 20000 number, given as too high by many sources and that includes the dedicated jabo types.

So, the day the Fw190D9 DOUBLES the number of F4U1-C sorties recorded in tour 12 or 13 (and this only because I still hope that HTC comes back into sense and perks the monster), then, that day, I say, I will be agreeing with you taht the Fw190D9 is way too used for the historical role they fitted.


Oh, and by the way, Fw190D9s fought in WWII for aprox. 9 months...

how long was the F4U1-C career?

 

Once again you prove you have no point, but a lot of demagogy and rethoric toad.

Are you a lawyer?

[goat10]

I think some of you are missing the point of the post. (No Names) It is not about how many planes were made. It is not about the weapon load out or roll rate. The premise of the post is “If it is in the game use it”. We are not flying in WWII. We are at our computers (some of us average about 6 hours a day).

Quote:
Because while the typhoon averages 3% of the MA kills, the Chog averages 20%. Because the Chog is far more common than any other plane, save the n1k2, while the Typhoon is quite a rare sight on the main arena.

Maybe because the Chog gets more flight time then the Typhoon.

Quote:
How about the M3 dweeb?
I was in a M3 just letting my guys out when another M3 rolled up(from the same side) and shot my troops so he could let his out and get the capture.
That is the ultimate dweeb in my book.

OK Mighty1 now that is a DWEEB!

Quote:
It ain't the plane that's Dweeb, it's the pilot.

And Eskimo wins the prize for getting the meaning of the post!

And for the last time.............

GO OUT AND KILL SOMEONE!

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I Hate It When That Happens!

[This message has been edited by goat10 (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Toad]

How long was the F4U-1C career?

 http://www.yuma.usmc.mil/Tenant_Units/vma-311.htm


The squadron <VMA-311> continued strafing and bombing missions until moving to Okinawa in March 1945, and was the first Marine squadron to use fighter aircraft for dive bombing missions. The squadron, now flying the F4U-1C (a modification which include four 20mm cannons and pylons for 5-inch rockets), downed its first aircraft on April 7, 1945."
 

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/cno/cnorpt_3.html

THIRD AND FINAL REPORT TO THE SECRETARY OF THE NAVY
 
Covering the period 1 March 1945 to 1 October 1945
 

"Since L-minus-7, 25 March, Okinawa itself had been under intermittent  
bombing and gunfire, and on L-day, 1 April, preceded by intense naval  
and air bombardment, the Tenth Army landed according to schedule over  
the Hagushi beaches on Okinawa against light enemy resistance."  
***********

From Okinawa around 25 March of 1945 to 10 August 1945. Looks like about 4.5 months or so to me.

Well, so you want to set a new limit on plane introduction based on "combat time"?  

Go for it, Ram. Try again to set the rules everyone else should play by. It's the only thing you're good at!

So, let's see...by your rules, there were twice as many FW's..a whopping 3.5% of total production vs 1.8% for the -1C. Wow..HUGE difference there..just HUGE! Both of these planes were just MAJOR parts of the production runs, weren't they!  Ooops..I mean just the FW was a MAJOR part..after all 3.5%!

..and the FW flew combat for about 9 months versus about 4.5 for the -1C..another HUGE difference. Just HUGE! Probably another 135 days of combat or so. HUGE! GIGANTIC!

Like to play with stats? Hitler invaded Poland in Sep '39 and Germany surrendered May '45...a 69 month affair. The FW flew for 9 months an incredibly HUGE 13% of the duration.

Pearl Harbor was Dec '41 and Japan surrendered Aug '45...a 46 month affair. The -1C flew for 4.5 months, an incredibly tiny 9% of the duration.

There ya go! More support for your side! The FW flew 4% more of its "war duration" than the -1C! Huge, HUGE difference there!

Go on Ram, keep telling everyone how the game should be played.

 

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-12-2001).]

[skernsk]

 

I love how guys will completely ignore the advantages of their favorite ride

Karnak normally a good point, but check my stats and see that the SPIT IX is my favorite ride....sorry bud I am not one to fly the C-hog.
I don't see the C-hog as a problem because it has distinct advantages and disadvantages as do all planes in the game.  It has guns which are no better than the Typhoon.  It bleeds "E" and falls from the sky.  I dont see a reason to whine about it.

RAM ---- I think that Toad has answered all the questions and if he is indeed a LAWYER he could comfortably "rest his case" and let the jusry take over.

<S> TOAD.....

[Cobra]

What was the question again?  

Cobra

PS. I think Mighty's example wins by a landslide!!

[J_A_B]

Wobble---


SOrry I took so long to reply, been busy..

"Dweebcat" is more of a term from AirWarrior than AH.  In AW, the F6F can climb 3600 FPM and is about as fast as a P-38, plus it gets incredible airbrakes.  

From this spawns the "Dweebcat" name.


J_A_B

[TheWobble]

Oh, good explanation...may I slap you now  

[RAM]

Toad...again, the master of the rethoric.

You said that I was shooting on my feet regarding the historical role played by the Chog and Fw190D9. And I answered that no, because in the comparison the D9 was way more widely used compared with the rest of the 190s  than the Chog compared with the other F4U1s.

You then laughed about the "comparative career" of the D9 and CHog, and you pass over the fact that the chog was used "in force" (If such a thing can be said with 200 planeS) only over Okinawa and Japan, while the D9 was in intensive use since August'44 till May '45.

Anyway I was rebating your argument,not making a point (because my points have nothing to do with the fw190d9, but with the fact that a plane that gets 20% of the arena kills is simply a unballancing monster), and your answer is "keep on saying how people must play the game".

 Really I dont know if you are lawyer or not, but if you aren't you have lost the chance to be millonaire. Or at least you could replace the guy who makes the scripts for Ally McBeal.

You dont have the reason on this one (two planes with total of less than 700 planes produced in WWII------>33% total kills.) and as you know it, you switch to personal attacks to keep your point...

 


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-13-2001).]

[Toad]

Wow… 3.5% of the overall total of FW’s. That is just SO HUGE a percentage of the total.  It just DWARFS 1.8%.   Face it; neither one of these planes made up a significant part of the type production run.

135 days more of combat deployment? Wow again. Both of them are "late war"…very late…in their respective theaters.

After Bodenplatte the LW was in serious trouble.

"The last year of the war opened poorly for JG 26. 'Operation Bodenplatte'(baseplate) claimed 214 Luftwaffe pilots, 34 of those were from JG 26. The raid was designed by Hitler to cripple Allied air power on the continent by destroying their forward fields, but it had the opposite effect. The Luftwaffe was able to destroy over 300 aircraft on the ground that day, but the unstoppable Allied Air Forces replaced every one of those aircraft within a week…. However, she (Germany) could not produce the men to fly these planes. Experience was now a valuable commodity

In early February, III/JG26 converted to the FW 190D9. The D9 was arguably the finest piston engined fighter of the war. With this final Gruppe's conversion, the entire Geschwader was now flying the D9. But their mission role had changed. JG 26 was now flying more ground support missions. The loss of aircraft and pilots on these missions proved to be staggering. These losses eventually forced the 4th and 8th Staffeln to disband due to lack of capable pilots. In March, III/54 was redesignated IV/JG 26. Just one month later III/JG 26 was also disbanded and its surviving members scattered amongst the remaining Gruppes. In April, the fourth Gruppe was also eliminated because of its losses.

Yeah, those last few months had to be real "quality time" for the D9.

So, Ram, let's wait and see. I’m very patient; are you?  

Perhaps HTC will post a "sortie count" for each aircraft so that we can also use that stat. Every time an aircraft launches and stays airborne for at least 60 seconds or so <to eliminate crashes on takeoff and vultches> it would be one sortie counted.

Maybe the arena is not all Niks and -1C's as you continually cry it is. I sure don’t run into that many of them. Maybe the Niks and -1C's are just running high kills per sortie compared to the rest of the planeset. You’ll admit that is a possibility?  

The basic flaw in your argument is that you use one stat...just one...to base all your whining on; total kill percentage

OK, let’s look; I suggest everyone review their own stats for this. These are mine for the last few tours.

Tour   /   Killed by -1C    /     Killed by Nik    /  Next close %

11     /     9%                  /      11%                 / 190-A5 & -51D  9%

12    /     13%                /        3%                  / Spit IX 9%,  PT & F6F  8%

13    /      12%              /        0%                  / 109-G10 12%, 9% by 5 planes


I simply don’t get killed by EITHER the -1C or the Nik a SIGNIFICANTLY larger % of the time when compared to other planes. Ostwinds ALWAYS get me more than anything else I think.

Ram’s stats for tour 10…the last shown before his countrymates started vectoring the enemy into him so often that he had to change to his new "top secret" handle   …are quite similar.

Tour 10, Killed by -1C = 11%, Killed by Nik = 8%, Killed by Spit IX = 25%

Looks like Spits were the big problem for Ram in Tour 10. My gosh! 25%! More than the -1C overall! Perk the Spit! Perk the Spit! Perk the Spit!  

…of course, we have no stats for Ram under his new "please don’t vector the enemy to kill me, countrymates!" handle.    

DejaVu has posted some stats that would indicate a very few pilots are responsible for racking up a huge number of the -1C kills. Shall we ignore that fact? Shall we ignore the possibility that -1C’s and/or Niks MAY have a higher kill/sortie average than other planes? That maybe you really don’t see them as often as Ram would like you to believe?

Check your own "killed by" percentages. See how large a threat the -1C and Nik are compared to the next few closest planes.

Make up your own mind.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-13-2001).]