Author Topic: Arnold's speech..  (Read 2442 times)

Offline lazs2

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2004, 02:07:44 PM »
Ok doc... now I see...

If a guy spends 100k on an education he should automaticly have a better job than the unwashed and he shouldn't have to ever work in any other field?  He is supposed to be guaranteed a high paying job in that field forever?  

 If that field collapses then the only thing open for him is home depot where there is no chance that he could ever get ahead?

I didn't go to college... maybe that is why my outlook is so different.   well... that's not entirely true... I did go to school at night for the jobs I chose and even the ones that chose me...  didn't cost 100k tho...so... probly not worthy..

lazs

Offline Westy

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2004, 02:08:27 PM »
"Want to blame it all on the CEO's? Fine, but how will you change it short of dictating CEO pay?"


 It's not that black and white Toad and dictating CEO pay is not the answer.
Neither is patting them on the back and giving them a reward by way of a tax break for sending jobs over seas.
Neither is the administrations handing to corporations their long sought after tools to eliminate overtime pay for over 6 million hard working Americans

I'm not blaming it all on the execs and I'm not ignoring the damage the unions did either. But if the unions erred by helping to "create" an economy where a light bulb engineer was paid $80 to change a customers burned out bulb you can be sure the corporation were as culpable, if not more, by submitting a bill for $320.00 to that customer.

Unions IMO were an absolute necessity back in the late 1800's. However what most of them eventually became was as corrupt and self serving as the greedy, abusive people they were supposedly protecting the workers from. IMO unions are still as needed today because of the tendency for too many of our government leaders to be "owned" by some corporation.

One thing is for sure though. The corporate execs that will take a pay cut or passed on a bonus to help his company stay competitive is so rare that you may as well say they don't exist.

In the meantime unions stewards break it to their membership that their wages are being cut, or they're being layed laid off and in too many cases the factories are closing.



Am I willing to pay more? Yes. The quality better be there though or no I won't.



(just an fyi I'm not in a union nor have I been in one for well over 20 years when I was a teenager and bagged groceries for customers in a supermarket. I prefer my current non-salary, non commission situation where I earn a good pay and I am rewarded by the quality of the work I do. but I now fit into one of those "gray" categories and stand to lose out on my overtime. That loss amounts to a lot more $$$ than a minimum wage worker stands to gain. So how does THAT help the economy? It doesn't. I cannot fathom how they can excuse handing OT to one group (that needs it) while taking it way from an equal number of peoples who make more and who’s overall contribution to the free market economy is greater.)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2004, 02:20:12 PM by Westy »

Offline Toad

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2004, 02:11:54 PM »
Skuzzy, note that one my sayings is "The only thing worse than a Union is ..... no Union."

I don't think one can view things so statically. The Management/Labor relationship is much more of a pendulum.

Like every pendulum, there is a period of extreme swing and then it slowly damps towards the middle. Until some force comes along and again pushes the pendulum to an extreme and the process starts all over again.

Which came first worker abuse or Unions? Abuse. Without the abuses, the sweat shops, the danger of the coal mines, etc., etc., the never would have been a "Union movement". Management pushed the pendulum to such an extreme point that another force arose and pushed it back.

Of course, Labor, in it's turn, pushed the pendulum to an extreme and .... we can all guess what happened next.

So, where are we now? Forces have combined to push the pendulum towards an extreme. Call it what you like, job outsourcing, CEO greed, "fair trade", "technological shift".... whatever you like. But the pendulum is swinging in favor of management once again.

The evidence is before us all in the form of lost jobs, reduced pay, reduced health care benefits, etc. Right now, because of the easy availability of cheap Labor in the world wide "free trade" market, American workers and/or Unions are essentially powerless. The jobs will simply be moved to Mexico or China or somewhere else if the Union "demands" are considered "too great".

Now, to say that we're not heading towards the pay/benefits of Chinese workers is sticking one's head in the sand. I did not say were were at that level, or that we would reach that level.

But it's clear which way the pendulum is swinging. Anyone hear of recent big pay raises/benefit improvements for large groups of American workers lately? No, the "talk" is the exact opposite of that. We hear of pay cuts and reduced benefits.

I will say this: the only thing that stands between the American worker and lower levels of pay and benefits are the Unions.

Make no mistake; I think Unions suck. I was in one for 23 years, worked in it, lived with it. However, I am not so naive as to think that American CEO's will look out for the American worker and improve the worker's lot if there were no Unions.

I totally agree. Unions had their place, and they were needed at one point in time. They served to solve a problem. A problem brought about by greed. They have, themselves, now become a problem due to greed.

Yet they will be needed again at a new point in time. The will again have their place. Because of a problem brought about by greed. This time, it will be management greed once again moving the pendulum.

Checks and balances.

"The only thing worse than a Union is ..... no Union."
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Skuzzy

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2004, 02:19:10 PM »
I hate to think that the only way to keep things in check is by the use of Unions.  We are screwed if that is the case.

There has to be a better way.

If Unions were about the jobs, benefits, and taking care of the employee so they were not put in harms way, either financially, physically, or mentally then I would be behind them.
They are not longer about that though.  That is a subset of what they do.  The impact Unions have on our country is mind boggling.  They have thier fingers in so many pies it is scary.

There has to be a better way.

EDIT:  We have gotten off the topic a bit.  I am going to stop posting in this now.
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Offline Gyro/T69

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2004, 02:28:11 PM »
"Of course, without Unions the high-paying jobs you bemoan wouldn't pay nearly so highly. The benefits like vacation, healthcare and job safety would be much closer to what Chinese workers are getting. "


The Toadster isn't that of the mark I don’t have the info at my fingertips, but as I remember reading about a local company was doing away with sick time pay for their employees. What caught my attention was the fact that, that company outsourced other company’s jobs. I’ll see if I can find it.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2004, 02:55:57 PM »
Skuzzy, yeah maybe another thread.

Still, in the early days of US industrialization, the government was totally uninvolved and there were no Unions.

Where did that lead? To an abysmal life on and off the job for the American working class.

The government alone has been able to make some positive changes.

The Unions alone have been able to make some positive changes.

The government WITH the Unions has been able to make some positive changes.

But taken in toto, neither the Unions or the government would have had much effect acting alone.

So what's different now?

It's clear the government alone can't protect the American worker.

It's clear the Unions alone can't protect the American worker.

Nothing's really changed. We're going to have to have Unions or it will get much worse.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2004, 03:16:41 PM »
haven't modern labor laws circumvented the original need for unions?
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Offline Eagler

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #97 on: September 02, 2004, 03:17:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
""Shut up you meathead"


you said it :)
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #98 on: September 02, 2004, 03:18:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok doc... now I see...

If a guy spends 100k on an education he should automaticly have a better job than the unwashed and he shouldn't have to ever work in any other field?  He is supposed to be guaranteed a high paying job in that field forever?  

...


Did I say that? No.

Want to take the $100K education out of the equation? OK. Lets say someone joined the U.S. Military to get his education. Put in 3 or 5 years to get as much education as he could. Had a nice little field trip to Iraq along the way. Lets say when his service is over he gets a job in hospital administation (so it's not even a tech job). Guess what ... he's screwed too if that department is outsourced.

The person in this example "worked hard and played by the rules" - and served his country - and he's just another statistic. Do you want to be the one to tell him he was wrong to spend several years of his life in the military getting an education? You want to tell him that its his fault for making the wrong choice?


Arnold's depiction of America is what the ideal is, was, and should be. Come here with nothing (or be born here with nothing), work your butt off, get an education, get a good job ... whatever ... and you can prosper.

But then along come swine like Ken Lay and oops, there goes everything you worked for all your life. Your own fault for investing in the stock market.

Or along comes some very, very suspicious "offshore development" agreements and oops, there goes your job. Your own fault for going into the field that fueled the boom of the 90's.

Or along comes an executive staff with uber bonuses for stock performance and oops, your whole department is outsourced to "save money". Your own fault for thinking that 10 years of dedicated service meant a damn.

Sure, you can say that stuff happens. But, come on.

(Yes, Skuzzy, we've wandered off topic ... but in a good way.)

Offline Skuzzy

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #99 on: September 02, 2004, 03:20:59 PM »
I know Doc, and it would be a pretty good thread to start.  Seems there are some level headed people who would like to discuss this.
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Offline slimm50

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #100 on: September 02, 2004, 03:40:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I dont think the Gov. said a single word in his speech that he did not agree with or he wouldnt have said it.


Wow way to be tolerent GS.

I'm not liking to hear GS's sarcasm, but he has a point: nearly all great speeches are as much the product of good speech writers as much as the substance of the person delivering it. Because of that they're suspect. (the speeches, that is). Still, it was a moving speech, and delivered with great conviction, I believe.

Offline Toad

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #101 on: September 02, 2004, 03:40:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
haven't modern labor laws circumvented the original need for unions?


No. All you need do is look at a heavily regulated job like a "commuter pilot" and you'll see that even FAA regs don't begin to provide a good, safe working environment. It's only recently that their rest requirements even began to approach "sufficient" and I personally don't think they are there yet.

Very few jobs are regulated at all, let alone to that degree. So there you go.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline slimm50

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Arnold's speech..
« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2004, 03:51:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
...Arnold's depiction of America is what the ideal is, was, and should be. Come here with nothing (or be born here with nothing), work your butt off, get an education, get a good job ... whatever ... and you can prosper.

But then comes along...

I think Arnold's depiction is still pretty accurate. When huge obsticles occur in life, it's the people who are willing to work hard that are the most likely to overcome them and succeed in spite of them. Even with the setbacks, in most cases they're still better off than they were when they began pursuing their dream.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #103 on: September 02, 2004, 03:55:24 PM »
What do you guys think about all the farm jobs we lost in past 100 years because technology made them unncesasry? Was America destroyed?

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2004, 04:00:53 PM »
Grun, wouldn't that be a good thread.  This one is already a multi-headed beast.
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