Author Topic: Armchair Psychologist Needed …  (Read 3348 times)

Offline Hornet

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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2004, 05:07:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by pellik
I think a better solution then the ENY ordeal is to rename the rooks to the 'queens'. Give them fancy pascal colored planes and let the "el gay" horde have its fun. It might not hurt their numbers too bad, but we could just sit around and make fun of them when numbers are too uneven.

(Not that I have anything against actual queens -- the chess pieces, royal family members, and cross-dressing queers.)

-pellik


I think this would work. Drop the ENY limiter. When the old ENY ratio hits, Rook plane skins are replaced with the famous BarbieFire skin across the previously ENY limited models. The ganged countries get a chuckle, Rooks still get to horde in La7s and 51Ds and everyone logs off happy.
Hornet

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2004, 05:12:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Coolridr
Here's mu only problem..The 339thFG was REAL late war...only existed about a year..They only flew the 51B for a real short time...They were a 51D squad...we are modeled after a historic squad and like to fly that way..we have tried to move our squad night to less popular nights to fly but that still hasn't worked...we didn't choose the plane as much as we chose the squad..now we can't hold our squad night and be happy about it....we took a vote to change countries..and at was 75% to stay rook because of the friendships and teamwork we have there...and to put it out there this game darn near lost an entire squad in the matter of 1 day. There has to be a better way to balance sides..the way we are doing it now only causes hate and discontent...and with lack of a better game to play (as far as MMOG flight sims go) what choice do we have but to stay here....HT has us all over a barrel with this:(


You cross-posted this over so I'll cross post over my response.

My respect and admiration for other historically based squadrons in Aces High knows no bounds ... but ... may I make a suggestion (just a suggestion, mind you)?

First ...

Now .... granted .... VF-17 doesn't have as great a chance of losing it's pet ride in the MA as much as the 339th FG does. BUT ... even if we did ... we, long ago, learned that occasionally we may have to widen our historical point of view some. By this I mean the historical relationship VF-17 had with earlier squadrons.

The commanding officer of VF-17 (the only one it had prior to the squad being disbanded and reestablished later as an entire new entity flying F6Fs on the West coast) was also the commanding officer of an F4F squadron that participated in Operation Torch (Escort Fighting Squadron 29 or VGF-29). Kleinman and Halford both served with VF-5 - land based out of Guadalcanal during it's darkest days.

The virtual VF-17 decided long ago to be willing to fly anything blue (we have, since then, adapted to flying anything - period - when blue isn't available. More on that in a bit). We feel an historical connection in the F4F and the F4U. Many pilots got their start in one then went on to be the core nucleus of squadrons formed flying the other.

Secondly (and this is no slam on the MA, so retract claws now, kittens) ....

The MA is not ... nor will it ever be an historical setting. The CT can't mimic it perfectly either ... but it tries. And VF-17 flies both.

But flying the CT regularly requires members of VF-17 to give up thier preferred ride on a regular basis (we're talking F4U setups generally being rare there). So .... we fly other planes when it's not there. And we tend to switch sides to balance the arena. And you know what? Even though we're an historically based squadron devoted to the F4U ... we have fun doing it.

When we want to fly F4Us we can go to the MA. If, by chance, the ENY was to somehow affect the availability of the F4U-1 ... ahem ... we would switch sides and fly it. We should have switched anyhow if numbers ended up THAT extremely lop-sided.

But what we'd rather be doing is flying the F4U in an historical setting against it's traditional foes. Eh ... we all gotta make sacrifices sometimes.

To sum up. There's bound to be some historical connections that your virtual representation of the 339th FG can find to older units that flew the B modell (or even the P-40). But it's just a suggestion. Takes a lil give and take.

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2004, 05:19:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
zazen: You are not coming close to any thing I have ever said. Quite frankly you might wish to dig up my quotes. And I realy do not apreciated have words put in my mouth that I never said.


Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Working together is not penalized. We are not trying to implement a system where consentrating your forces is hampered.

But it realy is a basic game concepts that all sides have the same number of players. If you don't belive that concept, please sight one case where a game is not designed with that in mind. And please do not tell me AH is war, because it is not, it is a War game. And games are ment to be fun and fair. While war is not ment to be either fair or fun.

With equal sides, doing what it takes to win , is what game play is. In AH there are multiple levels of winning, makeing a capture,just shooting down more people than shot you down, ending the war. All are items of game play in AH.

Having more on your team gives your side an unfair advantage to all other sides. All items of game play are effected by that imbalance. And there realy is nothing that the sides with less numbers can do about it. They can not swith countries to even the numbers, if they move to the country with more numbers it just makes everything worse. They could make a treaty, but that only works in a defensive mode.

Equal sides is such a basic consept that over the life of AH the sides have maintained a fairly equal number, the resone is realy simple, people have more fun when the sides are equal.

So now the question becomes not IF the sides should be equal,
but how to accomplish that equality with least impact to the social apspect of the game.


Thanks a lot for the idea midnight. Obviously you have put some thought into it.

But have a few issues.

1 Im becomeing more convinced perks are not the way to balance the arena.

Primarly because it is not fair to new users. And the perk system is realy desiged to limit the choice of each user as to how often they can fly some planes. When you try make it a balancing issue you suddenly have created a big economic system And where it would lead becomes very unpredictible results.

2nd your idea of reseting all to 1000 would create a huge cry from those who have been saveing perks. Next it would remove the goal of the new guy to want to to earn points to try out the 262.


3rd with this "use a local multiplier based on a 4 sector area" you suddenly are complety changing the issue at hand.

Basicly I am not against consentration of forces in the arena. That is a very valid war tactic and infact it is a fundemtal doctren that the attacker must have a numbers adavantage. When all sides are equal each country has the choice of how to allocate there forces i.e. in a group to go on attack/ or spread out/ how ever they wish. I do not see this as an issue. With a country imbalance 1 country could still dominate 2 different 4/sector areas while the others putting up adefense would have the same limitations as the large country but only in 1 area, and hence you are back to square 1. More numbers in a country would still be an advantage.

The issue is all about country balance not consentration of forces.

And to put it simply, fairly equal numbers between sides makes a better a game and is lot more fun for every one. I realy can not think of one game either board game/sport/computer game any type game where each side is not equal. It apears to me to be a fundimental game concept.


HiTech




Quote
Originally posted by hitech
To begin with I think side imbalencing has not been that much of a problem over the years. Only on a few occasions has things gotten out of wack.

But there have been times when the numbers have gotten far out of wack.  We typicly resist any change that forces people to different sides.We typicly are more inclined to giving incentives to changing sides to the lower number country, but so far it has not been a strong enough force to always keep the sides  close to balance.


Our current thought is that a country with substantialy more numbers, say in the realm of 20% more will have a time limit imposed between flights. This time would vary with the side balance.

This would have a few effects.

1. No one realy wants to wait to fly another fight, wrather than wait some will either change sides, or log off. Either has the effect of balancing the numbers.

2. The wait time will also have the effect of fewer people acctualy in the air at one time. Hence also balancing the fighting numbers.


Your thoughts?




HiTech

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
We are going with a system based on the ENY value using the same formula as the time system uses.

As the number of player increases on a side planes with an ENY value less then the "balance output" will be disabled.


HiTech


I agree with most of your accesment Virgil from a philisophical level.

But consider a few thing.

1. If the community had done what you belive they should HTC would not have changed anything.

2. We have resisted changing any thing for a long time, And out first attempt and providing a country moving force was done only when it became and issue (perk multiplier this was a few years back). This was done to effect other issues as minimly as posible.

3. This is still a buissness, not just a community. Neither can survive with out each.

4. If I belive the country imbalance is making the game less fun, and in the end fun is what creates a bigger player base, and hence more revanue for HTC, dose it not become our responsiblity to ensure it happens?

Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.


Try come up with an idea that does the following.

1. Moves people to the other side.

This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.




HiTech

Did a query of the country totals. This is from the entire subscrition base.

Bish = 31.1%
Knights = 32.2%
Rooks = 36.7 %


As I have been reading the responses this morning somthing struck me. Most of the responses not wanting the time limit all had one thing in common.

Each person did not wish to give up their country to balance the numbers. And because they were not willing to change sides they didn't want the time limit. Well isn't this the basic problem we have right now? That people are not willing to change sides, they want some one else to have to change sides. Or they want to give somthing else to the underdog to apease them, but they are not willing to give up anything to solve the issue.

Even the suggestions of the new guys beeing put into the low number country is imposing limits just like the time limit. And the suggestion of not letting people switch to the high number side is just as limiting as the wait to fly limit.

I belive that most players would like to see the sides more evenly balanced. And most of the alterntive sugestions do not provide much motivation for people to change sides. They also would be extreamly difficult to predict what the outcome would be.

As far as the acctual times go here are a few samples in the range I am thinking. This is based from an average sortie time of 7.5 mins, That was from a random sample of 6 players, I need to queary the enter score base to fine the real average sortie time.


Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 120 0.00
Rooks 120 0.00

Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 120 0.00
Rooks 140 1.32

Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 140 0.00
Rooks 200 5.92

Count Mins Wait
Bish 100 0.00
Knights 130 0.00
Rooks 200 6.66


HiTech


So far my thoughts on alternatives of perks or plane limitation , is that I realy doubt they would motivate people to change sides.

Right now it should be obvious that the perk multiply has almost no effect, implementing somthing similar as sugested might triple the effect but it would still have almost no effect. So what we would be left with, is more complaining, but the problem would still remain.

The other problem I see with limiting the top used planes, is that the numbers advantage would still greatly out wiegh the plane type advantage. In fact the lesser used planes like the p47 start to realy shine when you have a numbers advantage.

I also do not buy into the argument that it would be limiting in any way, all it would be is the big sides choice to wait to fly or to change sides. Thats a choice to make, not a limit.

I have no doubt that the time limit with the right settings would balance the fight, regardless if people changed sides.


And a big thanks for keeping this discussion fairly civil so far.


HiTech





HiTech



Patch 8 is now available for download.



Added a new country balancer that disables available planes based on country number
imbalances and plane ENY values. NOTE: Values for this system may change as the
system is optimized.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2004, 05:32:18 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2004, 05:23:31 PM »
I think picking a fight with HT about this may accomplish alot of good here. Ahem (/sarcasm)

Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2004, 05:31:13 PM »


Hitech,

I could not find the quote where you said you would incrementally increase the ENY modifier until it had the desired effect, but this collection of posts by you directly implicates that very intention. Now that I think about it I actually believe you said this in the MA during one of your Q & A sessions shortly after the implimentation of the ENY system. Clearly, if you read thru what you wrote, especially the portions I highlighted, you state more or less what I said. You start off by saying you do not believe the idea of plane limitation will work (I agree with you), then you say you are going with the system of plane limitation?!? (makes no sense, you contradict your own initial convictions). You follow by saying your 'business goal' is a numerically balanced arena, stating happy customers equals more customers, therefore more revenue for HTC (do we sound happy to you now? Do you think our unhappiness will effect your revenue?). In the patch message itself you say the ENY system will be tweaked for 'optimization' which by your definition is synonomous with  numerical parity.

It's pretty clear that your stated intentions are to manipulate the ENY system's values until people on the advantaged side either log-off, cancel their accounts in disgust, or capitulate to your demand they float around like leaves in the breeze to whichever country happens to be disadvantaged at any given time.

If any of this is incorrect, please correct me. I mentioned in my original 'para-phrase' post that I was doing just that, para-phrasing what you said (notice no quotation marks). But I am still of the opinion I captured the essence of what you said. I have no desire to misrepresent what you have said in the past, if you feel I have done so, I apologize in advance.

Sincerely,

James Christian Hill a.k.a. Zazen
« Last Edit: September 07, 2004, 02:05:52 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2004, 05:33:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
I think picking a fight with HT about this may accomplish alot of good here. Ahem (/sarcasm)


I'm not picking a fight with anyone. I think alot of us got the impression the ENY system was being rammed down our throats and we need to learn to like it or lump it. I just want to clear the air here seeing as the ENY system in its current incarnation is obviously ineffective. We all have a right to know what the next step is.

Zazen
« Last Edit: September 06, 2004, 06:00:48 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2004, 06:33:38 PM »


HiTech,

Read your post then mine I have cut and pasted below for you. I could not find my original post about MA country demographics that more comprehensively explains how the three countries have different age/economic (closely related) demographics but you get the idea. It is my contention that if you had just been patient after launching AH2 the numbers would have balanced rather quickly on their own. The transition to AH2 was expensive for alot of people and prohibitively expensive for some, especially alot of those from Bishland and to a lesser extent Knights. Rooks were either already equipped to run AH2 or had the finances to get equipped rather quickly. If you had paid attention to the  MA country affiliation of your beta-test participants you would have also predicted this as I did. You seem to grasp the, 'each country has a unique collective personality', concept  but are at a loss as to how demographics effects gameplay and balance both in the short and long-term, especially during this recent period of transition. I'll keep digging for my original 'MA demographics' post I think you may find it usefull.

Those you lost in the transition will be back sooner or later (most sooner) and they will affiliate with the country they affiliated with in AHI for the most part, especially if that country is also numerically disadvantaged. Rooks simply got a head-start for economic reasons. You hit the 'panic button'  before you even got AHII fully implimented (TOD? that will effect balance too btw, think about it...) and pissed off alot of your formerly impressed, satisifed and content customers on all sides of the fence when you should have just let things be to take their natural course, in my opinion.

Even your little account percentage summary thingy can prove this to you. I quoted it in the above post. You have a snapshot of the accounts and their general country affiliation after the release of AH2, now compare that to your account demographics prior to AHII beta. This will show you what your customer base was and who they affiliated with before those with insufficient funds for the necessary upgrades or new computer realized they would not be able to play AHII. They likely cancelled their accounts either during beta or shortly after AHII went live to avoid paying the $15 dollars/month for a game they could not yet enjoy. My guess is you will find there was parity within the margin of error for all three countries prior to AHII beta. On a similiar note, what you perceived as people quitting because of numbers imbalance near the time of the AHII release was actually people quitting because they lacked the necessary hardware required to run AHII within what they deemed acceptable performance parameters. It's quite possible you may have misjudged the whole entire situation.

Zazen





Have been thinking about this. So far Im thinking it just happens randomly.


I have noticed that all the time I have been in flight sims, Each country eventualy devlops it's own personality.

This isn't to say that every person flying for a country is the same. But wrather more people of one group or like mindes gravitate together just because of humun nature. There is no prediction how this gravitation will end up, or what the personalities of each country will end up to be, just that the personality will form.

I' starting to think in the current situation we ended up with a unique set of countries that for some resone didn't want to balance out like it always has in the past. Still have no idea what common personality trait made it this way.


HiTech




No, actually, dividing is taking the current player base and partitioning it into two groups that will be unlikely to ever come back together again. Those that do not come to AH2 immediately will more than likely 'rejoin' the community once they have surmounted whatever obstacle that prevented them from doing so in the first place. Alot have described their intention to do exactly this on the BBS.

Obviously, there will be a few who will never buy another computer or upgrade?!?! so may never come to AH2, but those people probably have some other more important life issues to attend to anyways and will likely be better off devoting their free-time elsewhere, like getting an education or a job, or perhaps a second job. My contention is that in the final analysis, once those just naturally resistant to change decide to do whatever they require to try AH2, the vast majority in AH1 today will make the transition to AH2. This may take a while, but Aces High in whatever form is simply the best massively multiplayer combat flight simulator there is. Those hooked on this genre will be there, those that are not hooked, well, have fun playing card games online, we'll sure miss ya  

Zazen

I forget what I called the thread, but as beta began I predicted Rook numbers would become disproportionately greater than Knights and especially Bishops for reasons of customer demographics. To make a long story short, demographically speaking, Rooks are older people with careers who are better able to afford the necessary hardware required to run AH2. Your average Bishop 16 year-old flipping burgers at McDonald's for minimum wage simply cannot afford a $499 256MB Radeon 9800 XT. Obviously, this demographic distribution is a gross generalization, but accurate overall. As Morpheus noted the numbers support my earlier speculation.

Also, realize each country has numbers at different times of the day. Knights have alot of US West coasters so tend to have superior numbers 10pm to 4am Central. Bishops have alot of European players so tend to have superior numbers 4am to 4pm Central. Rooks have alot of US East Coasters so tend to have numbers 4pm to 10pm. The reason Rooks 'appear' to be advantaged numerically is because their period of superior numbers occurs during prime-time for the most amount of players, therefore more people witness this time period than the other two time periods.

But, look at it from the vantage of statistical significance. A 25 player advantage during prime-time when there's 100 people on each team on average is less impactfull percentage wise than the same 25 player advantage Bishops tend to enjoy during the day when there's 50 people per team on average. Those same 25 people represent a 50% advantage during the day, but only a 25% advantage at night during US prime-time. The same 50% advantage applies to Knights after midnight central. It's much easier for Knights or Bish to counter 125 Rooks when they have 100 people online than it is for Rooks or Knights to counter 75 Bishops when they have only 50 online during the daytime, for example.

Most people are only aware of the numbers situation during their particular play-time window, the numbers are actually more even than they appear subjectively from your particular play-time window if you were to see it from a 24-hour play-cycle perspective.

Zazen
« Last Edit: September 06, 2004, 08:36:49 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2004, 06:43:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dawggus
ROFLMAO ... THAT'S IT, I can't believe you found it!!!

Hmm, Charles is a lot uglier than I remember :).

Cya Up!



BTW, Dawg ... didja notice that whatever he did for 15 minutes a day in the privacy of his own room also made him a championship boxer?

Is this Charles Atlas book still in print? :D

Offline Dawggus

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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2004, 07:43:13 PM »
Arlo, I think we may have stumbled onto something here!  We need to do a little more research on Charles Atlas to find out about this little "15 minute" exercise ;).

Cya Up!

Dawg

Offline DipStick

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« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2004, 07:53:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Exactly.

And the scary thought which may be crossing some minds is just how much more dangerous Rooks could become if ENY forces them to not only become proficient in other planes, but also increase their level of teamwork because of it.

What's that old saying about  the "briar patch?"

    -DoK

Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2004, 08:04:31 PM »
I don't think it is actually about numbers... I think it is about fairness.  

Any side with twice as many people as another side is going to roll that side over if all planes are available.  Practically by definition, in the MA, this means you have say 200 1945 planes attacking several fields defended by 100 1945 planes.  Since plane quality is equal, numbers takes the day.  

So I think the goal is to balance out the numbers/technology pendulum so that no side just completely has no chance at all to defend itself.  

I think people are losing sight of the fact that this isn't targeted just against the Rooks.  OMGWTFSUX0RS!!! HTC hates rooks!!!  I quit!!  That is the general tone of the complaints I see.  This change affects whichever side has the most numbers, be it Bish, Rooks, or Knights.  

I'm actually all for a completely unrestricted version of this, with the exception of GVs.  If your side has 450 people and you are facing a combined 200 people, you outta be forced to make due with 202s and SBDs to take bases.  Granted, that is an extreme example.  

The people that fly the P-38 do have a valid concern, in my opinion.  I think a earlier version of the P-38 needs to be added or the P-38's ENY bumped up a little, since it is the only version of the plane we have.

Offline DipStick

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« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2004, 08:09:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
The people that fly the P-38 do have a valid concern, in my opinion.  I think a earlier version of the P-38 needs to be added or the P-38's ENY bumped up a little, since it is the only version of the plane we have.

Agreed and I'd add perk planes should be available at a higher price.

Offline sax

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« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2004, 08:09:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol


Good one DipStick:)

On the same subject as Zazen tho I am trying to
find a quote by HT thats says he is happy with the game as is
and any further development is done.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2004, 08:20:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
Dumbest damn thing I've heard in a while and that's saying something with Zazen around. Smoke another one... :lol


Hey, Dip ... mah bruthah! Don't call DoK G dumb. He's one of the immortals. I like him. Alot. Not far enough to swap spit or nuthin'. But he's ok in my book. I just don't see eye to eye with him 100% on this. Maybe 27.42% :D

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2004, 08:22:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I think a earlier version of the P-38 needs to be added or the P-38's ENY bumped up a little, since it is the only version of the plane we have.


You and I don't see eye to eye very often at all, Urch ... but ... I think you nailed this one dead to rights. Another simple, elegant fix. WTG. :)