Author Topic: Note to Hightech  (Read 3099 times)

Offline DoKGonZo

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2004, 11:34:56 AM »
The MA can still be a good place for noobs to learn and have fun at the same time. But you have to want to *improve*, not just get kills. There is a big difference between the two. If you just want to start racking up a score, then drool on over to the nearest conveyor belt and vultch away. Wahoo! You am be a Fyter Ase! NOT!


Best thing to do is look for a smaller fight on the edges. Someplace where 6 or 8 guys are trying to take a base or defend one. Take off in your preferred ride and join up. On the distance channel, *tell them* you're kind of new and ask if you can tag along and help.

Most experienced players will respect that kind of attitude. They will keep an eye on you. If you're using the wrong plane for the mission profile, they'll tell you exactly what plane and loadout is best next flight. If they see you doing something that'll get you killed, they'll tell you. You will get check-6 calls - which is hugely important to surviving long enough to learn anything. You will be able to engage enemies knowing people are there who will most likely try to save you if you get into trouble - instead of waiting til you die so they can take your kill.

Even if all you do in an afternoon is take up a P51 and clear the 6 of the people you're flying with ... and get nothing but assists ... you will (a) have had fun because you were part of a team effort, and (b) will have learned a lot more than you realize about the *timing* involved in succeeding at this game.

    -DoK

Offline Tilt

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2004, 01:21:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
and what do you learn, as a noob, flying in the horde?.................and then locked into it because to actually get better they have to put their fragile egos on the line



I can understand the temptation to classify those from the horde as above.....infact I think its a gross generalisation and not entirely true ...........

My experience is that the majority of players move away from the horde with time..........they may stay in smaller numbers and may not become lone hunters..........

The horde is IMO that group of players slow of skill or new to the game mixed with those of skill and experience who (for that evening or that mission) take a lazy option. They are large group without real leadership and therefore only capable of "horde" like strategms.

They are the "mob" of Shakespeare's Julius Ceasar unchanged through the centuries. Yet as individuals they are not so different to any free thinking player here.
Ludere Vincere

Offline DoKGonZo

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2004, 01:28:55 PM »
Well, there are other things you find in the Horde ...

Some nites you just want to help with a reset ... like, if you're sick of the current map.

You can get some fine bounces moving out a little ahead of the Horde and picking off people trying to climb into it.

Hunting goon-hunters is always a kick.

And sometimes, well, sometimes someone just has to go in and de-ack the damn field, y'know?

     -DoK

Offline Tilt

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2004, 01:47:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo

Best thing to do is look for a smaller fight ...........

 Someplace where 6 or 8 guys are trying to take a base or defend one. Take off in your preferred ride and join up.  


Totally agree this is best for experience and fun factor..........IMHO it is this that any game play modification should target and not concern its self too much with overall number balance (except how it effects the above) or who is winning or losing.
Ludere Vincere

Offline Simaril

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2004, 04:19:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The MA can still be a good place for noobs to learn and have fun at the same time. But you have to want to *improve*, not just get kills. There is a big difference between the two. If you just want to start racking up a score, then drool on over to the nearest conveyor belt and vultch away. Wahoo! You am be a Fyter Ase! NOT!


Best thing to do is look for a smaller fight on the edges. Someplace where 6 or 8 guys are trying to take a base or defend one.

    -DoK



Quote
Originally posted by 4510
And at this point is where you should wreck your keyboard... and when you are calmed down.... pander to the Vet's ego... and ask him if he will explain what tactics they used... what you could have done better etc.  Perhaps you get a response... and THEN the learning starts...



Im only 6 months in to online flight sims, and I think I understand what Ohio was trying to express. It can be VERY frustrating to try and try and try, failing but not really understanding why.

And while I hear what the vets are saying -- self directed training and analysis CAN help us move up some notches -- I think there is a point here that does have merit. The vets who stuck it out are the ones who largely pulled themselves up by their bootstraps; who knows how many noobs left, whose learning style is different and whose never developed skills could have been contributing to the MA and CT? We're talking about lost potential. Just because you guys learned by pain and self study doesnt mean everyone else should HAVE to learn that way.

How many others are there who jsut feel the frustration for a coule months and leave? I'm not driven by my ego, but it isnt fun toi ALWAYS be meat on the table for someone else. Give the guy  a break -- maybe he actually just want to have fun with a realistic flight sim,  and maybe he doesnt want to have to learn to play peewee football by scrimmaging with the NY giants.

Because in essence that's exactly what you're asking newbies to do. Forget being safe, forget having fun -- boys, if you wanna learn to play you're gonna have to take some licks. Training camp and film room until you're big enough to earn our respect....

------------------

Having said that, Ohio, they also have a point. I got very frustrated and probably would ahve quit if it weren't for the fun of online flying with my out-of-town brother.  I've learned a lot by a few sessions with a trainer -- "pick up" in the TA and by appointment through email. I've reviewed films from the BBS and films of my own actions. I've read some articles and learned ACM concepts (though applying them still needs some work.) I've done some sessions in the DA with people better than me so I could learn form my mistakes.

And almost whenever I've asked, my killers have offered suggestions about whta I did wrong. one small step at a time I've learned to stay alive by flying better. I'm not a vet, but I'm somewhere between an apprentice and a journeyman. Trust me, it's more fun than doing the flaming aluminum thing. Expect it to take months.

There are unfortunately pilots who take the game much more seriously than they should. It's sad to realize that for some their "skill" at a  COMPUTER GAME is a benchmark for their self image and self worth. It is a game,a nd its supposed to be fun. Just remember that some who taunt the "no skill dweeb" are in essence like the high school sports star who never makes it in adult life, who has nothing but his game to live in.

_______________

The posts I quoted, and the others like them, are the kind that I think will help the game the most. They're positive, practical, and helpful.

For everyone else: Don't dis the guy. He has a point, and right now AH2 can't afford to lose subscriptions unnecessarily. Our response should be a bit above "suck it up, take it like a man, it'll make you stronger."
« Last Edit: September 12, 2004, 04:26:08 PM by Simaril »
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Offline 4510

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2004, 04:38:22 PM »
Back when I first started online flight sims I managed to get some help from folks.  I will admit a lot of the time I had to ask them how they managed that.  However I did have several folks that would "reach across" the country barrier and send me a message and say...

"Hey... let's go to OCLUB2 and talk over our last engagement.  There are several things you did that really put you in the hurt locker.  Meet you there?"

Moggy was good about that.....

Twist... you sort of had to ask / beg.....

Bebop would help you.....

In the beginning the "lead turn" was a complete mystery.....
"Unloading the wings"... did you actually take them off the plane?

If course back then there was a lot more emphasis on A2A than in AH.  So more chances to meet someone in a 1 v 1 and try some moves etc.

Offline DoKGonZo

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2004, 05:08:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Im only 6 months in to online flight sims, and I think I understand what Ohio was trying to express. It can be VERY frustrating to try and try and try, failing but not really understanding why.

...


FWIW, I've never subscribed to the "furball til you stop sucking at it" training method for the reason you just stated. There are so many variables that you can't tell what you're doing wrong.

But ... new people need to really understand that this is a *thinking* game. Quick reflexes may get you some snap-shot kills, but the people who have really mastered this genre do it with their heads, not their hands.

Therefore, self-study *is* important. There is no short-cut for having this core knowledge. If you want to get good, you should go to Amazon.com and order a copy of Shaw. Nowwwwww, maggots! :lol

Find a trainer, ask some of the guys here on the BBS to go to the DA, and practice offline ... a lot. It's boring as hell, but if you have to think about hwo to fly the plane you're at a disadvantage.

    -DoK

Offline Cobra412

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2004, 05:09:48 PM »
Simaril I understand what Ohio is getting at and I can understand what the "veterans" are getting.  Because of the learning curve in AH you have to put a little more effort in to even become mediocre.  

To make the teaching process a bit faster it is advisable for new folks to do some research on the above mentioned items.  By atleast having a basic understanding of these items it will greatly expediate the training process.  They don't have to know every last thing just the basic idea of what each pertains to.

Unfortunately in a game like this it requires alot of things to become good.  You need knowledge, quick reflexes, and above all patience.  Over time things will start to come naturally but in the meanwhile there will be good and bad times.  More bad then good it seems at times.  If folks just want to come in a shoot stuff down here within their first week it my not be the right game for them.  

I was flying 400 to 500 sorties when I first started and I was lucky to get a 100 kills by the end of the month.  It took me almost 4 months or so to even start to break even on my kills to deaths.  This game just takes time to get use to and even then it won't guarantee you'll advance to the levels of some folks on here.  I'm not even close and I've been flying for just over a year now.

Oh and I believe Gonzo is talking about Robert L. Shaws book, Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering.  I have that book too and it helps a whole lot when it comes to basic theory and even more of the advanced aspects of air to air engagements.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2004, 05:13:36 PM by Cobra412 »

Offline tzr

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2004, 09:11:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 4510
I am trying to remember the last time I heard a "VET" say something on channel one like....

"HEY XYZ... if you are willing contact me privately... let me tell you what I saw in that fight and what I think worked and didn't"

Usually I hear "VETs" mocking someone because they are in a horde.. or it took three of them to shoot the Vet down etc.


If ya look in the "Help and Training" Forum  You will see lots of Vets saying they will show "Newbs" how to get better..even Shane!!!:eek: :aok

Offline 4510

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2004, 11:01:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tzr
If ya look in the "Help and Training" Forum  You will see lots of Vets saying they will show "Newbs" how to get better..even Shane!!!:eek: :aok


Ah but back to the old "find it on the bbs thing".

I think the dialog needs to be done in the MA...

Channel 200 would work nicely for such things... instead of the constant trash talk that routinely happens there.

Offline Cobra412

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2004, 11:06:11 PM »
4510 that's all fine and dandy if they atleast have the first clue of what your trying to teach them.  Without a decent foundation you can sit and run around in circles just trying to get a certain point across.

I understand for some it's easier to do it than to read about it.  But in the long run it saves alot of time if they atleast try to grasp a little of the basics first.  Other wise you'll spend too much time trying to fight vox and typing everything out that the session won't be as effecient.

Offline Shane

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2004, 11:11:04 PM »
when the arena has 300+ people on ch200 and ch2 and ch6 (unless u have it squelched) scroll by way too fast to be able to hold fourth on the finer points of acm/sa/tactics.

that's what the DA/TA is for, unfortuantely many of the people who need it most, i.e., other "vets" won't step outside of their own little boxes.

I rarely spend time with total noobs who have not the slightest clue about things - there are simply way too many of them. you want to reach the guys who have stuck with it for a while but are unable to progress because they simply aren't sure what to do to get past the particular level they're stuck on.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2004, 11:16:01 PM by Shane »
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
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Offline Widewing

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2004, 11:55:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
4510 that's all fine and dandy if they atleast have the first clue of what your trying to teach them.  Without a decent foundation you can sit and run around in circles just trying to get a certain point across.

I understand for some it's easier to do it than to read about it.  But in the long run it saves alot of time if they atleast try to grasp a little of the basics first.  Other wise you'll spend too much time trying to fight vox and typing everything out that the session won't be as effecient.


Which is why new players should spend some time in the TA where they can get help with the basics.

I spend about 6 hours every week working with new players, as does the rest of the trainers. Some log up to 100 hours in the TA every month.

We help them learn the basics of aircraft management. Help them get their VOX working. I try to get them into something besides the Spitfire, where most seem to gravitate. There are also veteran players who go to the TA to work on aspects of their flying. These guys almost always will take time to work with Noobs. Cobra412 was doing exactly that the other day. Most noobs get into fighting each other. That's useful to a point. Unless they fly against players with more skill than a fellow noob, they head off to the MA with a false sense of confidence. Invariably, they run into a vet and get waxed. After this happens several times, they become discouraged. Some simply quit, others assume that this is how it will be and get into the suicide mode, already knowing that they will be shot down anyway.

This is why it is important that new players log some time with good, experienced pilots. Since you can't get shot down in the TA. getting pinged up doesn't end the flight. You can discuss what was done wrong and immediately see if the lesson was learned. I try to get the noobs into aircraft that have a medium difficulty level.

However, it's up to the new player to go there and seek help. Any new player can contact HTC for a list of trainers and their e-mail addresses. They can drop a line and set up a time and date for training. If one trainer can't be there at that time, another usually can. Here's my e-mail address.

Widewing@flyaceshigh.com

Talk about personal attention, Fuseman is visiting Skeksis at his home to help him sort out joystick issues (they both live in Buffalo, NY).

There will be more trainers added soon. Skuzzy and Ghosth are overseeing the organization of a genuine training corps.

Everyone, both veteran and new players should go to the training page at the HTC website. HTC set up this system so that experienced players can work with new players. Read through the page and you will notice that HTC has a reward system in place for helping new players.

It says,"If/when the new player subscribes to Aces High II, they are presented with a list of all players who have helped them and they choose who they feel helped them the most.
 
The player chosen as the one who was most helpful is given a $10 credit to their account "

By helping new players it's possible to earn enough credits to fly Aces High for free. HTC says. "It will be possible for exceptionally helpful veteran players to accumulate multiple credits.  In the future, HTC will consider sending checks to those that continuously strive to build the Aces High II customer base"

Gentlemen, if you want to expand the player base, if you want a better caliber of competition, you can volunteer to train new players and maybe save some money every month to boot.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Cobra412

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2004, 12:02:34 AM »
Widewing that's a great post.  Many don't choose to seek out help in the TA when there is alot of good folks that help out in there.  I'd bet that many don't even know that there is dedicated trainers in there either.

I would spend more time in there but I'm still a newbie myself.  I'd hate to send some guy/girl out to the MA with my bad habits.  Which I'm sure some of the vets that kill me could point out in a heartbeat.

I will teach the basics if folks need the help.  I just wasn't sure if we could do it in the TA considering we aren't official trainers.  I'll be sure to ask the trainers first if I can help though.

Offline Schutt

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Note to Hightech
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2004, 03:09:36 AM »
Im pretty bad pilot myself, really would need some training lessions.

I think a newbie arena would be bad, because in there only the more experienced newbies would blow away the true newbies without any endangerment of themserlf. Verry boring and eaven more frustrating for people that just start. I would venture a guess that eaven more experienced players that get frustrated in ma go to newbie arena to blast everyone away.

Find guys that are willing to help you. I started of as rook but didnt get much help there, some tried but werent online on my times (Thank you Spetsnaz).

So i got an offer from a knight wanting to help me, i changed teams and got some help, now sometimes having fun at shooting away in the ma but im still a bad pilot.

When you really want to learn i would recomend the training arena, or going to the dueling arena with a friend.

You have to find friends, online games are all about finding other players, either to play together with them or to get into competition.


just my 2 cent, see ya

schutt