Author Topic: Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF  (Read 1305 times)

Offline Gh0stFT

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2004, 08:17:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Torque
Awacs is great when you're fighting a third world rival but up against an Air Force with modern day technology isn't it just one big fat target?


i hope that we will never find this out.

Not much left from Boelkes, Immelmanns or Richthofens fights,
today fire & forgett, no vis needed.


R
Gh0stFT
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Offline Replicant

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2004, 08:19:21 AM »
Guess it just comes down to tactics I suppose?

Several years back during Red Flag, RAF Tornado F.3 were overwhelmingly succesful against F-15s and F-16s.  Why?  The Tornado F.3 is far inferior.  However, the RAF made use of 'Link-16' which was developed by the USAF but not used to its full potential.  RAF AWACs would supply data via Link-16 that would allow the Tornado's not to use their own radar and remain more stealthy (Link-16 provided full 360 radar coverage).  As soon as a target was acquired they flipped their own radar on and then got the missile lock which signalled a victory.  On one occasion the Tornado simply taxied onto the runway, got missile lock and then taxied back.

USAF complained but now they themselves fully utilise the data Link-16.
NEXX

Offline slimm50

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2004, 08:28:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Torque
Awacs is great when you're fighting a third world rival but up against an Air Force with modern day technology isn't it just one big fat target?

A big fat target......with big fat eyes and ears to go with it. They can see any threat coming, so no threat to them, really.

Offline Bodhi

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2004, 09:48:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bluedog
If both the USAF and the Indian AF took on the RNZAF, they wouldn't be able to down a single Kiwi fighter.

I'd be willing to put money on that.


I'd take that bet in a heart beat, an even give you 1 pays you 20 odds.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2004, 09:49:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
I'd take that bet in a heart beat, an even give you 1 pays you 20 odds.


You would lose the bet. They have no more fighters in their air force...

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2004, 09:51:03 AM »
Grun beat me to it. Looks like the woman they put in charge took away all their toys.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2004, 09:57:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You would lose the bet. They have no more fighters in their air force...


Great technicality,

I assumed he meant IF they had fighters again...  not our fault that their PM neutered them...

My bad, prettythang out of U and ME = ASSUME
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 10:00:08 AM by Bodhi »
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Offline Gixer

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2004, 12:51:44 PM »
"Simple fact is by just limiting AWACS you have already disabled atleast half of one systems capabilities."

AWACS's was limited because the USAF didn't take a AWAC's platform with them just the F15's.

The exercise wasn't about who had the best AWAC's radar. It was about giving the USAF a matchup against a first class fighter like the SU-30 which unfortunetly due to the SU-30's performance and longer range missiles won most of the engagements. When the ranges closed it won with it's superior manouverability.

The teen series of US fighters are awsome fighters, but have lost the edge technologically against the latest crop of Russian fighters. Why the F22 and it's varients is needed.


For those of you that think the US Air Force was cheated and that the IAF did better then expected by winning 90% of the engagements because the F15's had half their systems turned off. Not to worry.

The IAF has accepted a invitation to take one of their SU-30MK1 units to a Red Flag exercise next year. So the USAF can have a crack at the front line fighter on their home turf.

So it will be interesting to read the reports of how that one goes.



...-Gixer

Offline Scootter

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2004, 01:57:23 PM »
Fear not guys as it was said earlier the USAF wants lots of F-22's and that the 15 is what?  30+ years old now. The USAF had a bit tied behind its back for some good reasons.

 It was a rigged exercise not a no holds bared war after all.

Also this should help keep the peace over in them parts as now P-stan thinks a bit more of the IAF, so it's all good

Offline Raptor

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« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2004, 04:33:50 PM »
the one problem I dont like about the USAF is they tend to rely on technology more than combat manouvers. I think the USAF needs a Topgun of its own.
Also, isnt the F-15C an older varient? I thought the more widely used one was the E? or is the E just better at hitting ground targets
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 04:36:41 PM by Raptor »

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2004, 04:57:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
"Simple fact is by just limiting AWACS you have already disabled atleast half of one systems capabilities."

AWACS's was limited because the USAF didn't take a AWAC's platform with them just the F15's.

The exercise wasn't about who had the best AWAC's radar. It was about giving the USAF a matchup against a first class fighter like the SU-30 which unfortunetly due to the SU-30's performance and longer range missiles won most of the engagements. When the ranges closed it won with it's superior manouverability.

The teen series of US fighters are awsome fighters, but have lost the edge technologically against the latest crop of Russian fighters. Why the F22 and it's varients is needed.


For those of you that think the US Air Force was cheated and that the IAF did better then expected by winning 90% of the engagements because the F15's had half their systems turned off. Not to worry.

The IAF has accepted a invitation to take one of their SU-30MK1 units to a Red Flag exercise next year. So the USAF can have a crack at the front line fighter on their home turf.

So it will be interesting to read the reports of how that one goes.



...-Gixer


Gixer I honestly think you are taking an Aces High mindset to a modern day consept.

Long gone are the days of plane vs. plane pilot vrs. pilot.

modern day combat tactics now include a full spectrum of system capabilities and integration there of.

Killing one system is like taking a spoke(s) out of a wheel.  You limit its ability to do the mission.

Just saying an Su30 would kick a 15s bellybutton one on one because it is more manuverable is at best asnine.  It does not work that way anymore.

Dont get bent on what I'm saying I'm not flameing you....just making a friendly observation ;)

Offline Torque

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2004, 05:24:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by slimm50
A big fat target......with big fat eyes and ears to go with it. They can see any threat coming, so no threat to them, really.


Well i suppose that might help a bit when an enemy is closing in at Mach 2+, it might just give them a few more minutes of flying time.

Offline Cobra412

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2004, 06:37:36 PM »
Replicant the USAF from what I understand originally started their Link 16 crossover because the European nations were running them and all nations felt it was a needed system to coordinate effeciently.

Originally the JTIDS system was designed and though it was alot more capable and powerful the FDL system was chosen for it's realiability and maintenance costs.  All USAF F-15s are being retrofitted with the new FDL system.  Basically a Link 16 system with a bit lower watts and a few less gadgets.

Gixer I can assure you that it wasn't a "oops we forgot AWACs so we'll do with out it" scenario.  If the USAF really wanted to prove that capability they'd have brought them.  I can assure that technology is advancing in the F-15 systems.  The F-15s are not slated to leave the active duty status till 2025.  That includes both C/D and E variants.  Our software and hardware packages constantly improve.

Quote
The IAF has accepted a invitation to take one of their SU-30MK1 units to a Red Flag exercise next year. So the USAF can have a crack at the front line fighter on their home turf.


I actually love to hear this kind of talk.  For starters even Redflag scenarios involve the limiting of systems.  I've been to many Redflags and have heard the gripes by aircrews about what they could and couldn't use.  Also I can assure you that the SU will be in for a big surprise when it comes.  It will probably have a F/A-22 shadowing it the whole excersize and never even know it.  If not that scenario it will have the unfortunate task of having to compete against the F/A-22 in a setup scenario, much like the one in India.  

Where I currently work we fly with and against F/A-22s on almost a daily basis.  Though some of the information is only deemed sensitive I can assure you they will be highly suprised in the end.  Especially since I know what the F-15 is capable of and what it can and can't do against a Raptor.  In the end I hope India enjoys the sites while in Vegas.  The only fun they may have is during their off duty time.

Oh and Raptor we do have our Top Gun style training.  Everything from Weapons Academy, Combat Archer, and Red Flag.  They also use to have a Green Flag training session.  The F-15C is still one of our primary A/A fighters while the E is primarily a A/G airframe.  They're missions can cross to an extent but with limited results.

In the end if folks can't see that some of these "excersizes" are also filling another purpose you may want to take off the blinders.  Especially considering Raptor has been on the chopping block as far amount of numbers they will eventually produce.  What better way to show that they are needed than to say our current top of the line fighter is completely inferior.  Do you honestly think we would have kept the F-15 as our primary and spent as long as we have on the F/A-22 if the F-15 wasn't capable of defending our home lands or our allies?  I'd have to say I highly doubt it.

Offline Bluedog

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2004, 06:58:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Great technicality,

I assumed he meant IF they had fighters again...  not our fault that their PM neutered them...

My bad, prettythang out of U and ME = ASSUME


Sorry Bodhi, it was a bit of a loaded bet :)


Bad dog Blue! go and sit in yer corner



The only thing I see out of this whole thing is that allthough the mighty Eagle was a superb aircraft in it's day, those days are numbered.
Not really surprising I guess, given that it is a forty year old design.
It would be a real problem if the F15 was the pinacle of US aircraft design, but the fact is, it isnt.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 07:02:24 PM by Bluedog »

Offline -tronski-

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2004, 07:00:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
Do you honestly think we would have kept the F-15 as our primary and spent as long as we have on the F/A-22 if the F-15 wasn't capable of defending our home lands or our allies?  I'd have to say I highly doubt it.


I honestly think it's never been such as issue considering the force projection of the USAF. Coupled with tanker/AWACS support there hasn't been a remotely threatening rival since the heights of the Warsaw pact. However the rise of regional capabilities should be a concern especially considering the future onset of block obsolescence of much of the USAF, and slow but expected deployment of the F/A-22 - F-35 JSF

 Tronsky
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