Author Topic: Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF  (Read 1236 times)

Offline Cobra412

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Operations "Cope India 2004" USAF v IAF
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2004, 07:21:34 PM »
Tronsky what your saying is absolutely true.  The one thing that folks have to keep in mind is the use of disinformation.  Not only to other countries but to their own government officials.  

The price tag for an F/A-22 is extremely high in comparison to the F-15.  To make their point, it is easy to setup "failures" and show a lack of "Security" to get what they want.  The F-15 Active has shown that with modifications the F-15 can be a very maneuverable airframe.  With avionics upgrades it can be very lethal if combined with up to date weapons.  The only thing lacking is "super cruise" and stealth.  Though Stealth can not be helped completely, testing can be done for "super cruise".  Stealth can be helped to a certain extent with the use of new jamming methods if they chose to put the time and money there.  

The Government has to justify the hefty price tag for the F/A-22 and one way to do it is show that their current platforms cannot handle in any way shape or form newer variants from other countries.  This gives them justification for spending that time and money on the Raptor.

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2004, 07:33:48 PM »
Bluedog as I stated previously the F-15C/D/E variants will not be leaving active duty service for quite sometime.  If anyone thinks they are just going to sit here with no new upgrades you may want to think again.  The F-15 will be here for some time to come and will still be a force to be reckoned with.  It won't stand by while the Raptor keeps advancing.  It will keep doing "Operational, Test and Evaluations" till the end of its service.

Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2004, 07:36:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
Tronsky what your saying is absolutely true.  The one thing that folks have to keep in mind is the use of disinformation.  Not only to other countries but to their own government officials.  

The price tag for an F/A-22 is extremely high in comparison to the F-15.  To make their point, it is easy to setup "failures" and show a lack of "Security" to get what they want.  The F-15 Active has shown that with modifications the F-15 can be a very maneuverable airframe.  With avionics upgrades it can be very lethal if combined with up to date weapons.  The only thing lacking is "super cruise" and stealth.  Though Stealth can not be helped completely, testing can be done for "super cruise".  Stealth can be helped to a certain extent with the use of new jamming methods if they chose to put the time and money there.  

The Government has to justify the hefty price tag for the F/A-22 and one way to do it is show that their current platforms cannot handle in any way shape or form newer variants from other countries.  This gives them justification for spending that time and money on the Raptor.


Very true, our govt. has a similar vein with our F-111's, and the JSF. I personally think we should replace our F/A-18's and or F-111's with leased F-15K/E's until the JSF can be fully evaluated

 Tronsky
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Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2004, 07:44:13 PM »
Tronsky I have read a little about that whole change over.  I highly doubt though that it will happen anytime soon.  Especially if JSF is their primary choice.  Reason being is the JSF has yet to show its happy face here.  

It has been pushed back for developmental testing mostly due to Raptor.  I believe much of the avionics and stealth technology being used on the Raptor will be crossed to the JSF.  Better to learn the hard way once.  I'd assume much of the avionics integration that is being tested on the Raptor will also be crossed to some extent to the JSF.

The most I've seen of the JSF is the original prototype being towed to the museum.  Other than that all I've heard is "being delayed" for one reason or another.

Offline bozon

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« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2004, 09:18:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
Not much left from Boelkes, Immelmanns or Richthofens fights,
today fire & forgett, no vis needed.

R
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for every BVR weapon technology there's a counter technology - stealth, ECM etc. BVR are very good in theory, in practice in some possible fighting conditions they are almost useless.

do not take the "XXX can be fired from 50 miles away" too seriously. It can be fired - hitting is a different question.

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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2004, 11:04:42 PM »
The IAF kicked our arses and it's a good thing. Just like the example given regarding the Brits and Red Flag, it will end up helping us improve.

In a real war, I doubt much of the IAF would even get off the ground though.

Quote
Naturally when IAF pilots travel to Alaska during July 2004 for another joint exercise, the Americans will be well prepared.

I am interested to hear how this went. Anyone have news about it?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 11:06:45 PM by NUKE »

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2004, 03:18:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
Tronsky I have read a little about that whole change over.  I highly doubt though that it will happen anytime soon.  Especially if JSF is their primary choice.  Reason being is the JSF has yet to show its happy face here.  

It has been pushed back for developmental testing mostly due to Raptor.  I believe much of the avionics and stealth technology being used on the Raptor will be crossed to the JSF.  Better to learn the hard way once.  I'd assume much of the avionics integration that is being tested on the Raptor will also be crossed to some extent to the JSF.

The most I've seen of the JSF is the original prototype being towed to the museum.  Other than that all I've heard is "being delayed" for one reason or another.


I think the JSF was originally going to be rolled out in 2006/7 but I think that's more likely to be 2011/12.  Even so I still think it's an impressive turnaround if they can actually roll it out for those dates.

The RAF/FAA will be acquiring the STOVL version.  I'd actually prefer the coventional/catapult launched version in all honesty since it will be lighter and have more room for important things like... fuel! :)  You can't VIFF with the JSF STOVL either.  It all comes down to cost cuts... the STOVL maybe more expensive but it means that the RN only have to have smaller CVs than ones fitted with catapults.

I was fortunate to have a go of the Lockheed Martin JSF flight simulator and all I can say is that it made me realise that there will be no need for pilots after this aircraft.  The amount of data coming into the aircraft, instrumentation etc., this sort of thing could be flown by the arm chair pilot!
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Offline Elfie

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« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2004, 04:05:26 AM »
Quote
On one occasion the Tornado simply taxied onto the runway, got missile lock and then taxied back.


Thats not possible in a Red Flag exercise. All mock combats take place over designated ranges. Once airborne all aircraft in the exercise fly to thier designated range. Their are multiple ranges that the USAF uses over the Nevada desert.

I participated in 2 different Red Flag exercises as a weapons mechanic on F-15A's
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Offline Replicant

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« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2004, 04:32:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Thats not possible in a Red Flag exercise. All mock combats take place over designated ranges. Once airborne all aircraft in the exercise fly to thier designated range. Their are multiple ranges that the USAF uses over the Nevada desert.

I participated in 2 different Red Flag exercises as a weapons mechanic on F-15A's


I'm just saying what a Sqn Ldr AWACs mission controller told me about 5 or 6 years ago.  Since I don't fly I don't know whether it's true or not!  I haven't a clue what sort of distance the runway/taxiway is from the range they use then?  What's the range of a missile?

I think he said it was Red Flag or Green Flag... one of the two.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 04:34:12 AM by Replicant »
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2004, 06:17:58 AM »
Raptor1,

The USAF does have an equivalent to "top gun".  It used to be called the fighter weapons instructor course, and most USAF fighter squadron commanders are FWIC graduates.  The school has been expanded to cover every system the USAF has, so it's been renamed "WIC" by dropping the word "fighter" in the name of the school.  It is a lengthy course covering every possible mission your weapon system may be involved in, plus it covers integrating  the operations of each system with the ops of every other system in the USAF.  Graduates are often referred to as "patch wearers" due to the distinctive weapons school patch they are authorized to wear for the rest of their career.

As for AWACS being present in the fight against the IAF, there's a good chance it would have been shot down.  We'd be idiots if we always trained in situations where we're equal or greater in numbers, and in a real shooting war against an opponent with a capable air force the odds and matchup seen in this exercise are definately possible.  We try to train against what we see as a near worst case scenario and we're always trying to push that envelope.  4 v 30 isn't exactly a typical training scenario, but it could be a useful exercise to determine (for example) how effective a 4-ship might be if trying to protect a strike package or high value asset.

The overall point is that the F-15 is not a "modern" fighter anymore.  We can stretch it's capabilities a bit further, but it has the radar cross section of a football stadium and that is becoming much more important than almost any of you guys realize, trust me.  As an F-15E pilot I've ended up in more than my share of "fair fights" when training against other NATO aircraft and as a guy flying an attack fighter, it's not a position I enjoy.

Imagine you have a football team with a great offensive line and some world class linebackers.  They win every game, and almost nobody gets hurt.  Then after a while you find that the games are getting closer and closer, and suddenly you find that your running backs are starting to suffer injuries every game.  You know that at the end of the season, you're going to have to play the best team in the other league, but the trend of close games and injured players is rapidly increasing.

Do you get some new blood in there for a few games before the season ends, or do you use that running back with the broken foot and hope he doesn't hold it against you when he gets his back broken in the first quarter and you lose the game?

Sure it's not the greatest analogy, but the point is that the F-15 is at the turning point in several negative areas.  Maintenance is starting to become very expensive.  Parts are being hand-made or simply being swapped jet to jet because the factories that made the originals closed down 10 years ago.  Jets are starting to break, increasing the mishap rate and increasing the chances of mishap fatalities.  And the latest generation of fighters and SAMs are just drooling for a shot at a flight of F-15s because they can see them a looong way away and may get the first shot while surviving our return fire.

So what part of that means it was all a setup and we don't really need a replacement fighter?  To match the CURRENT generation of opposing weapons, we need a combination of weapons loadout, endurance, range, speed, and stealth that simply isn't available in anything we already have.  What we ought to end up with is a plane that can not only match the current threats, but also be viable through the next generation as well.  The F-22 and potential attack variants would likely be that plane.  The JSF as a single engine single seat aircraft will never have the range and payload we need.  JSF is an F-16, F-18, and Harrier replacement, nothing more.  JSF fits a requirement we have, but it is not capable of taking over the air superiority role from the F-15 any more than the F-16 is.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 06:24:57 AM by eagl »
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Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2004, 12:11:57 PM »
Eagl has made some very good points.  I have to point something out though.  We've been swapping parts from jet to jet on the F-15E since as early as 1995 due to lack of supply.  The demand on the supply system is overwhelming.  The turnaround rate of components from backshops and depot level are high.  The quality of those parts even when turned around is fairly low.  It's is consistantly an issue of getting back "Could Not Duplicate" parts from the 2 level and depot level facility.  When these components come back they cause the exact same problem on the airframe again.  They have damage that should have been caught prior to ever leaving their facilities.

We should have never had an issue with component availability for the F-15E that early in it's life span.  The AIS repair stations should have been updated to test every last item on the components.  The depot level should have had the same and had a better quality assurance inspection system in place.  With all do respect it is our higher level management that let this become an issue.  They would rather "cann" a part then put the demand on the supply system and tell the MAJCOMs we can't fly do to lack of supply.  Had they done it this way it would have turned on a light saying we are doing more maintenance because there is a problem getting parts turned around quick enough and in good quality.  Doing deficiency reports just isn't enough and the guidelines for doing them are weak to say the least.  

Many of the issues with having to "hand make" parts for the airframes is again the Air Forces fault.  They buy components knowing that they will get no support for them after they buy them.  They know that their will be no replacement parts and that they will have to find a way to ensure these components last.  Hence why we have Gold Flag facilities at most bases.  That is basically a bad purchase in my opinion.  Instead of going with companies which will offer replacement parts and with equipment that is made to withstand the punishment that will be induced by flying them in a fighter aircraft.  If you buy cheap then you will get cheap results.

As for as the radar cross section of the F-15 I cannot deny that it is extremely large.  That is where advancements in jamming systems come into play.  That is also where strike packages have to be setup properly to help counter these kind threats.  If we expect to protect our airframes against new technology then we have to counter in such a manner that will ensure we atleast have some kind of advance jamming systems designed.  It also means we have to be able to engage at longer ranges which means weapons design has to be upgraded for long strike options at a higher lethality rate.  I know "all" the specs on our weapons and our radar systems.  Upgrades are needed if we expect to keep these airframes top notch.

Offline Heater

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« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2004, 02:41:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor01
the one problem I dont like about the USAF is they tend to rely on technology more than combat manouvers. I think the USAF needs a Topgun of its own.
Also, isnt the F-15C an older varient? I thought the more widely used one was the E? or is the E just better at hitting ground targets

The F-15 C is the Air to Air version, the F-15 E is the Strike egale or the Air to ground Version, how ever it still has very goos Air to Air capabilities.
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Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2004, 03:08:26 PM »
Fighting the SU-30's I can see being a problem seing as how it's suprior to any of our current fighters....Losing to the 21's ...It's probrably politics....goes something like this..

Oh look our aging fleet of F-15's can't hold their own against a well trained advesary flying even a lowly Mig-21 and the Su-30's just ran circles around us...we need more funding for the F-22 right now.
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