Author Topic: Falluja and military strategery  (Read 613 times)

Offline AKIron

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Falluja and military strategery
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2004, 12:45:45 AM »
It's about both Nefarious. My son, who is 21 btw, can't understand why we are so willing to absorb losses to protect those so intent on our destruction. I think he believes that anyone in Falluja is there by choice even though there has been a battle going on for some time now.

As we discussed this I realized that perhaps it is a good thing militarily to have your enemy concentrate his forces rather than sneaking around among civilians.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline RTSigma

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Falluja and military strategery
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2004, 12:57:59 AM »
There was a quote I believe...I can't remember who said it:


Terrorism and civillians are like fish and water. The terrorists are fish and the civillians are water. Take away the water and the fish can't survive.

Sigma of VF-17 JOLLY ROGERS

Offline Nefarious

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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2004, 01:04:35 AM »
Sorry, Didnt know your son was that old.

I'm sure he can make his own assumptions on the fighting in Fallujah.

As for all the Armchair Strategy, I really dont want to be involved.

There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline AKIron

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Falluja and military strategery
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2004, 01:35:44 AM »
Well, he is just a kid afterall, I want him to make the correct assumptions. ;)

As to the armchair general part, we always did like our wargames and can't help but examine this from a stratergerically viewpoint.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Boroda

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Falluja and military strategery
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2004, 07:12:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by -tronski-
Because leveling Grozny worked wonders didn't it....

 Tronsky


There is a big difference between assault in Grozniy and Fallujah.

First: Grozniy was turned into a giant fortress by Chechen gangs. There were no civilians there. When Federal troops surrounded Grozniy they gave several weeks for unarmed people to leave the city.

Second: Russian Army fought the organised force of criminals, who invaded neighbouring provinces of Russia, who performed genocide of non-Chechen population there for over 8 years, who praciticed slavery and kidnapping as national business.

Third: we have built that city. It was built by thousands of Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Jews, etc, who were later raped, murdered and robbed by "freedom fighters".

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2004, 08:19:49 AM »
There were no civilians in Grozny, it's simply redikulus.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2004, 08:28:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
There were no civilians in Grozny, it's simply redikulus.


The war went on for several month when Grozniy was surrounded.

Any _unarmed_ person had several weeks to leave Grozniy before the assault started.

If there were "civilians" left there - they were the kind of "civilians" that hide their automats and go to be interviewed by Western journalists about how evil Russians raped them ten times and burned a hut where they held their slaves.

Offline Muckmaw1

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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2004, 08:29:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Prolly 5,000 of these insurgents a coupla months ago.

20,000 of them now.

My god, they seem to multiply. Funny how that works.

You think 20,000 is a lot? I do.

But it's a drop in the bucket.

You being happy about them congregating in a single place (false, btw) reminds me of an old movie called Zulu.


And multiplying as fast as Iran can send them over.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2004, 08:33:59 AM »
... and Saudi Arabia.

The border is porous with little control. Anybody can get in there.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Muckmaw1

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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2004, 08:53:22 AM »
Kinda like Texas....

Offline Gixer

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Re: Falluja and military strategery
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2004, 01:36:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
My son and I were discussing Iraq. He can't understand why we don't just level the city and be done with it. I told him that besides the political aspect it makes sense to encourage the insurgents to congregate at a central battlefield. Makes identifying the enemy much easier and as they commit more and more of their forces to this area we will eventually be able to unleash our full military might against more of them.

Opinions?




AkIron,

Was thinking more about this. The problem certinly isn't confined to just Falluja and although the troops on the ground are doing an excellent and very tough job. One has to wonder whether they really are too few in numbers (by about 100,000) to shut the militas down.

Unfortunate that the Iraqi Army was disbanded but in heindsight eveything is 20/20 as we well know.

What's needed is to shut down the boarders,  and stop the militas from coming in from other countries. Which of course would require alot more troops. It would be great if other countries would pick up the ball and run but unfortunetly Bush's decsion to go into Iraq in the first place wasn't a very popular one outside of the US so lack of support is hardly unexpected.

I think from the begining the number of troops required to secure the country was well under what's needed. And unfortunetly probably attributed to alot more casulties and wounded then necessary.

Sieging Falluja isn't going to help a great deal other then to annoy the local population as the militas seem to be spread all over Iraq.

One thing about the boarders is that they are generally away from built up areas so the military can use all it's might.

It is good however to see that the US military appears to be adapting all the time. To tactics and strategy. With security in Iraq then they really might start to win the "hearts and minds" of the population and in turn, turn them against the militas.

Anyway, not really an answer just my opinion.



...-Gixer

Offline Torque

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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2004, 02:09:11 PM »
Ho Chi Minh tatctics.

Offline GreenCloud

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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2004, 03:10:58 PM »
lol..the borders in Iraq...

im thinking its fairly easy to track groups of people crossing the border..

sounds sensors..UAVs...ect..

shootn fish in a barrel

so..if we are killing them 50 -1...they wont last long

Offline anonymous

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Re: Falluja and military strategery
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2004, 04:02:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
My son and I were discussing Iraq. He can't understand why we don't just level the city and be done with it. I told him that besides the political aspect it makes sense to encourage the insurgents to congregate at a central battlefield. Makes identifying the enemy much easier and as they commit more and more of their forces to this area we will eventually be able to unleash our full military might against more of them.

Opinions?


youre not far off the mark. plenty of senior planning and org type insurgents not very happy with falluj becoming big rallying cry and drawing all their future recruits into a battle where they getting slaughtered and not really able to hit back. they are getting slaughtered. and you can kill them all effectively. and not anyone can walk into iraq. plenty get caught trying to cross border and they are getting slaughtered as well.

Offline anonymous

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Falluja and military strategery
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2004, 04:03:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
... and Saudi Arabia.

The border is porous with little control. Anybody can get in there.


according to who? :)