USSAF Statistics for 1944

[Crumpp]

Thanks for the clarification. I did see a mention in 109 Aces of the Med that II/JG2 arrived with 190Asin the Med in response to Operation Torch in late 42-early 43 operating out of Tunisia. Does that fall under the time frame?

Np Guppy.  Some of the most productive discussions have come about because of the input of you and Angus.

Yes they were there.  Their last transport carrying the last of their ground crews left theater on 22 March 1943.  92 Squadron just missed them for this action.  

II/JG2 claimed 119 victories for 8 KIA while in the MTO.  Of course, one of the pilots who seemed to overclaim quite a bit was with them.

Crumpp

[Angus]

Oh, ran across this again.
18th of April 1943:
Evan "Rosie" Mackie
243 Squadron
18th of April 1943, location SE of  Tebersouk (243 sqn home was Souk el Khemis).
Squadron engaged a mixed formation of 109's and 190's, - there was possibly only one 190, but definately one.
"Rosie" managed to get a good shot into the belly of a 190 at some 150 yards. The 190 went Nose down full speed and was last seen heading into the ground at 2000-3000 feet.
Claim: One 190 damaged.

[Crumpp]

Squadron engaged a mixed formation of 109's and 190's, - there was possibly only one 190, but definately one.

According to the information I have:

There were 23 FW-190's from SKG 10 escorted by Bf-109's from JG53.

The got bounced by 12 Spitfires on the way to bombing Souk el Khemis.

3 FW-190's ditched their bombs the rest continued to target and dropped.

Only FW-190 casualty in the mission was 1 FW-190 was hit by "anti-aircraft" fire but managed to coax his plane to friendly territory and crashland.  (Could be your man?)

JG53 escorts made 3 claims and took 2 losses.

Crumpp

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Angus

You have probably about 30-40.000 German fighters lost total in the war (Wild but somewhat educated guess).  

From what I have compiled, German daylight fighter losses were the following between March 1942 and and December 1944:

12 806 lost to enemy action (ie. AA and fighters alike)
11 403 lost to non-enemy related causes (accidents and such)
7207 was written down on overhauls, aging etc.

This would contain the vast majority of FW 190s and Bf 109s. Plus some 110s, 210s etc., but not all of them, since those were a different branch, Zestorers and Nachtjagd, mainly.

Obviously from these numbers, the LW most likely did not lost 13 000 fighters in combat alone in 1944, altough the total number of written down aircraft to all causes was probably around this number.

Note on Groehlers numbers, his statistics contain _ALL_ types of losses, combat and non combat, overhauls, and even damaged planes, with as little as 10% damage sustained.

[Angus]

Nice info
Any numbers on 1939-1942 and on 1945?

I have some from early war if you need, but only battle by battle for some

[Crumpp]

Makes sense Izzy.  Thanks!

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Izzy,

That is the Losses for the entire Luftwaffe.  Not just the Western Front correct?

Crumpp

[VO101_Isegrim]

Yes, it`s for the entire LW, but again keep in mind that it`s about 90-95% complete only - not only Jagdgeschwaders had single engined fighters, but recce  and KG(J) units as well, various reserve units etc!

Further what I could find :

To get some idea of the 1944 era monthly losses, from ww2.dk the following was complied (daylight fighters), losses in December :

875 lost to enemy related
554 lost to non-enemy related
393 lost to overhauls (uberholung)

In the same month, 1024 new planes were received from factories, 224 from repair facilities.



The latest JaPo 109K book also gives some information for fighter operations. These numbers are fighters only, and I am quite sure refer to enemy related losses only (given the numbers above). They don`t give both fronts, only one at a time.

Western Front, 1944 December

Take offs : 11 053
Victories : 552
Losses : 527

Eastern Front, 1945 January*

Take offs : 6816
Victories : 395
Losses : 140

Eastern Front, 1945 February*

Take offs : 12 225
Victories : 443
Losses : 260

* In `45, the LW turned it`s strenght increasingly against the Red Army. I guess the increase in losses, and decrease of kill ratio is probably due to having an increased number of ground attack sorties flown against Red Horde troops.


In addtion to that, RL2III/1158 shows losses for the whole LW fighters for January 1945.

In total they had 3379 fighters, 2493 of them in combat units, the rest in reserve/replacement units. The entire planeset of the LW was 6597/1631, 8228 in total.

During January, a total of (1256/262) fighters were lost, (664/21) to enemy action, 385/108) in non-enemy related accidents, and (207/133) to overhaul and repairs.


I guess this data helps to arrive at some good conclusions. It demythizes some 'common wisdom' about the ferocity of LW operations in late 44/45, and it gives a pretty good pictures about the air combat condition differences between the Western/Eastern Front.

[Angus]

The overhaul losses seem high.
Did the LW do like the RAF in difficult times, - scrap damaged aircraft for spare parts?
Would seem logical.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Angus
The overhaul losses seem high.
Did the LW do like the RAF in difficult times, - scrap damaged aircraft for spare parts?
Would seem logical.

Most likely they did, hell, every air force did that. But I think they just did bother much repairing a/c that had anything else than minor damage, that could took days, and why to bother when there were dozens of brand new aircraft available in the storages, and fighter production sky rocketed ? Just grab another one and hop in, write off the damaged one, and let it rotten next to the airfield, serve as a decoy for allied jabos, after the most valuabe parts, like engines, armament and radios are salvaged.

[Crumpp]

Did the LW do like the RAF in difficult times, - scrap damaged aircraft for spare parts?
 

Yes.

The not only canabilized aircraft for spare parts but remanufactured old airframes.  Many of the FW-190A8's started life out as an earlier version of the 190A.  

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

It demythizes some 'common wisdom' about the ferocity of LW operations in late 44/45, and it gives a pretty good pictures about the air combat condition differences between the Western/Eastern Front.

Yes it does IMO.

It demonstrates the ferocity and the futility of the Luftwaffe last days.

I think the main point that struck me was the relative size of the Luftwaffe.  It was never the huge force I had imagined reading my College World History Text.

Coupled with the size of the oppositions forces it is amazing Luftwaffe moral remained as high as it did.  Joseph Goebbels must have done some good work.

The next thing that stands out is the number of losses to claims (we all know how claims are...).  If you examine the poor level of pilot training in the last years of the Luftwaffe, it is amazing that they could dish out on an almost equal level with what they took.  

Crumpp

[VooDoo]

Obviously from these numbers, the LW most likely did not lost 13 000 fighters in combat alone in 1944, altough the total number of written down aircraft to all causes was probably around this number.

Ive said it on the first page:

"Total LW dayfighters losses in jan-oct '44 - 13964."

"But yes - its losses from all reasons."



Need some help about Wilhelmshaven raid 27/01/43.

http://www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk/reichwest_vol4_1943.pdf

27. January 1943
U.S. VIII Bomber Command: WILHELMSHAVE & EMDEN
Jafü Holland-Ruhr

27.01.43   Oblt. Hugo Frey: 5   2./JG 1   B-17   £ 20 km. N.W. Tossens: 800 m.   11.15   Film   C. 2031/II   Anerk: Nr.31
27.01.43   Fw. Siegfried Zick: 5   2./JG 1   B-17   £ E. Jadebüsen [Jade Bay]: 4.500 m.   11.23   Film   C. 2031/II   Anerk: Nr.32
27.01.43   Uffz. Otto Werner: 1   3./JG 1   B-17   £ Wallen: 7.500 m.   11.25   Film   C. 2031/II   Anerk: Nr. -
27.01.43   Ltn. Paul Arlt: 1   1./JG 1   B-17   £ 15 km. N. Wilhelmshaven: 9.000 m.   11.30   Film   C. 2031/II   Anerk: Nr.35
27.01.43   Uffz. Herbert Hänel: 1   12./JG 1   B-24   £ 543 7C3: 7.000 m. in Waddenzee   11.53   Film   C. 2031/II   Anerk: Nr.4
27.01.43   Uffz. Josef Löhr: 1   12./JG 1   B-24   £ 544 7B2: 6.000 m. West-Terschelling   11.55   Film   C. 2031/II   Anerk: Nr.5

Supplemental Claims from Sources:
27.01.43   Ltn. Dieter Gerhardt: n.b.   2./JG 1   B-17    -   -   Reference: JG 1 List f. 631
27.01.43   Ofw. Ernst Winkler: 12   4./JG 1   B-24    -    -   Reference: JG 1 List f. 631
27.01.43   Fw. Rudolf Haninger: 3   4./JG 1   B-24    -   -   Reference: JG 1 List f. 631


From USAAF chronology:

"EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 31: The Eighth Air Force makes its first raid
on Germany.  The 1st and 2d Bombardment Wings dispatch 64 B-17s and 27
B-24s against the primary target, the Wilhelmshaven, Germany Naval Base; 53
B-17s hit the target between 1110 and 1113 hours local dropping 137.5 tons
of bombs; two other B-17s attack the submarine base at Emden at 1135 hours
as a target of opportunity; the B-24s are unable to locate the target due
to bad weather and a navigational error and return to base.  Mission
stats: we claim 22 enemy aircraft destroyed, 14 probably destroyed and 13
damaged; 1 B-17 and 2 B-24s are lost; 32 B-17s and 11 B-24s are damaged;
casualties are 2 KIA, 3 WIA and 30 MIA.
  Seven Spitfire Mk Vs of the 4th Fighter Group fly uneventful fighter
patrols."

Any info about german losses that day ?

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Crumpp

Not when you spend 3/4's of your time explaining the same thing over and over.

Crumpp

Welcome to HTC's world.....  

[MiloMorai]

Just picked up a new book (at least for me) that has JG 2 flying Fw190s in Tunisia.


On Friday 16 April 1943, the Fw190s got into a fight with Spitfires of 72 and 111 Sqds while returning from their ground attack mission. The next day, on another mission, 7 190s of SGK 10 provided fighter escort for the bomb carrying a/c.


On Monday 5 April 1943, 10 Fw190s of III./SKG 10 took off on a fighter interception mission to attack EA attacking La Fauconnerie with 1 Spit claimed.

from: Focke-Wulf Fw190 in North Africa, Classic Pub, ISBN 1-903223-45-8