Its pretty remarkable...

[beet1e]

Originally posted by moot
stats aren't useful without context.  AH stats don't come with a context.

You could fly death-machine sorties for an hour without taking 1 bullet for 50 kills and then take it easy defending a swarmed and vulched base consequently reversing something like k/d ratio.

Indeed, indeed. That's why, in the past, I have posted films - to add context. But *they* don't like that either!! What can you do?!

JAB said "So you think P-47's were never flown at low altitude."   Sure they were - immediately after take off, and immediately before landing.

No, I never said anything about 35K and 400mph. And I even mentioned Gabreski's prop strike. Clearly that did not occur at 10K.

But were P47s ever used in the Pacific, on the deck, for duelling with zekes? Erm... probably not. Also, I had not forgotten that the P47 was used as a fighter bomber. I've even used it that way myself in AH.

[J_A_B]

"But were P47s ever used in the Pacific, on the deck, for duelling with zekes? Erm... probably not."

It certainly happened from time to time.   Likewise with P-38's, P-51's, P-40's, etc etc.   It happened much more if you count factors like how in some areas, such as New Guinea,  the deck was at 10K or more due to mountains.  In the same vein, P-40's fought at 30K occasionally although they certainly weren't well-suited to the role.

The only thing I don't know about is the dive-bombing 4-engine bombers; and that behavior in the MA is a direct result of the stupid bombsight calibration system that was added to force bombers down from their 30K perch and the reliance of using bombs instead of torpedoes to sink shipping.


I strongly suspect you'll like TOD if it sees the light of day; scripted missions of specific historical nature seem to be your sort of thing.  Ironically enough, the MA doesn't really appeal to me OR you at this point; "lowest common deominator" seems to have turned into "make everyone a little unhappy".   I maintain that lumping everyone into a single viable arena is AH's single greatest failing.


J_A_B

[Morpheus]

Beetle go jack someone elses Golly-gee thread.

[68DevilM]

Originally posted by MoRphEuS
...when a single 110G2 can come in otd and straffe down a Cruiser in a single pass along with its rockets...

Its even more astounding when that 110 proceeds to fly right on through the CV ack with zero damage.


Thats realism for ya.

WTG guys.

yep preety remarkable

sometimes im left preety dumbfounded when i see things like this.

kinda like the whole rubber tree's issue

[Elfie]

No, the simplest solution is to simply make ships (not gun positions, just the ship itself) completely immune to small weapons.

Some of the gun postions would have to be immune to aircraft guns as well, particularly the 8 inch gun turrets on the cruisers and the 5 inch gun turrets on all the ships. Basically any armored gun postition should be immune to aircraft guns.

[Stang]

Geez Beet, you crack me up man.  You must live by stats more than anyone else in this game.  Yes, my p40 stats suck... but that's sweet my k/d is over 1.  Ask Morph how I fly it, I use it more upping from fields that are being vulched to stop them than I do any other way.  So hey, a k/d over 1 is great in that regard! Woot!

Hmm, despite dying a ton in hogs using them to kill osties and such other stupid stuff, it's funny that a guy who flies as "smart" as you still can't beat my k/d in them... what gives?  

[Urchin]

What gives is he's ancient and not very good.  He does seem to be a decent sort of guy though, when he isn't trying hard to be the worlds oldest ultra melon.

[Urchin]

I think this is easily broken down into what was possible in real life, versus what was not possible in real life.  

As far as I know, no capital ship was ever sunk by strafing in WW2.  As far as I know... it has never happened in the history of modern warfare.  So ANY plane strafing down a heavy cruiser is "gamey" or "broken" .. take your pick.  

A counter example, something that I don't have a problem with but many people seem to, is Lancasters flying 15 feet AGL to bomb stuff.  No, it did not happen very often in real life.  But it was actually possible.
 
One thing that really used to irritate me was that planes could casually strafe Panzer IV's and disable turrets/engines/kill them outright in one pass.  I *****ed and *****ed and *****ed and .. well, you get the point.  I *****ed because it simply should not have been possible.  At the angles/ranges these planes were hitting Panzer IVs from, there was simply no way they would have hurt the tank.  But it happened in AH.  It could NOT have happened in real life.  So I complained about it.  Eventually, HTC gathered up their data and made some changes.  I'm pretty satisfied with the results, I haven't gotten any kind of supremely outrageous kills on Panzers by strafing them with Hispanos/.50, or any other kind of gun.  

But I (personally), only have a problem with stuff that literally could NOT have ever happened the way it happens in Aces High.  That is the only part of the "simulation" that I feel needs to be completely accurate.  In my opinion, Aces High is a GAME.. Beetles "aerial quake" if you would.. using WW2 equipment that is MODELLED as accurately as possible with regard to real life performance.

[moot]

Yeah, just because a WWII plane had horrid torque and every recorded WWII pilot of this plane made left hand turns only, doesn't mean the AH pileit is GHEY/GAMEY/etc for using right-turns...

More debatable are things like having freedom to see straight 6oc from the very last inch of the upper, rear and right end of the canopy, and the next fraction of a second from the same place on the other side of the canopy, all the while alternating multiple opposite G maneuvers..

[beet1e]

Originally posted by J_A_B
I strongly suspect you'll like TOD if it sees the light of day; scripted missions of specific historical nature seem to be your sort of thing.  Ironically enough, the MA doesn't really appeal to me OR you at this point; "lowest common deominator" seems to have turned into "make everyone a little unhappy".   I maintain that lumping everyone into a single viable arena is AH's single greatest failing.

I agree, the scripted missions might be needed to hold my interest. I looked forward to it in Dec.2002 with 1.11, but it was decided that AH2 would come first. For a while, I thought that TOD would be part of that, but no. Onto the third waiting stage...

About the bombers: WB had various B25 variants - C,H,J. The H version did not have a norden gunsight, but it had awesome guns. Would this mean it was more a dive or low level bomber/strafer? I don't know if you ever flew WB, but it did not have scripted missions. Didn't seem to need them. Everyone seemed to accept that the coordinated missions were where it was at. There was none of this "it's MY $14.95" (or it's MY $2/hour) crap. The closest thing to scripted missions in AH is the Missun Editor. I quickly realised that the  missuns were no more than organised gangbangs.

Stang said "Hmm, despite dying a ton in hogs using them to kill osties and such other stupid stuff, it's funny that a guy who flies as "smart" as you still can't beat my k/d in them... what gives?" Well, what kind of answer would you like - facts or makebelieve? You seem to take offence at facts, ie stats, and would be amongst those to take offence at a film.  The problem for you (and others) is that you wear a virtual blindfold. You have adopted a vision of me being a 30K alt monkey/cherrypicker, and the reason you can't reconcile this with the facts is because the truth is rather different. But if it suits your mood, please do  persist with your fantasy. Or, if you prefer the truth, read on.

To answer your question I use the Hogs, especially the CHog, for CV defence. You see whereas some folks simply WHINE about the CV being attacked/sunk (or about HQ being duffed etc.), some of us choose to do something about it, other than whining on the BBS. (Note how this thread started - LOL) I've played only a few hours in AH2, so my stats are largely derived from AH1. And in AH1, the buffs (especially B17) had guns which were far more lethal than in AH2 - probably way over modelled. If you choose to view my film (and I'm not forcing you to) you will see that most of my deaths (about three out of four shown) result from buffs firing at me. In the first death, I was pinged at 1100 yards (LOL!) and took major damage at 1000 yards.  But hey, got to engage those buffs, else byebye CV. And then it would be time to post a Morph-style whine post.

Hehe, I think I shot 999000 19 times that evening, but he was gracious about it - real nice guy and friend of tatertot. 999000 got me plenty of times too.

So no, I "can't" match your F4U stats flying these types of duties, just as you "can't" match my P47D25 k/d flying it the way you do. I think I did OK in the hogs. It was the usual AH type of session - everyone working as individuals with bugger all teamwork. If I'd had just one or two working with me, it would have been much better.  I've edited voice out of the film - heck I was the only one saying anything LOL.

Film - (25 mins total, 3.04MB .ZIP) I've just realised why these are unpopular, and it's not the download time LOL - they burst the alt monkey myth - LOL - never went much above 5K in 25 mins. Typical session for me, I have films of dozens more.

Urchin! Not very good, but I am a lot better for your tutelage! I kept your list of 109G10 versus other plane for the longest time beside my PC. You and Grunherz were a big help. Ecke too.

worlds oldest ultra melon

Moot - salut - tout va bien? Yes, the view system in these games is gamed like nothing on earth. In one film I saw a guy flicking his hatswitch around as if he had a double jointed thumb. LOL. But the gamiest in flight trick I ever knew was the guys who would turn down the sound volume for their own engine, and "listen out" for planes creeping up behind them.  If flying a 109G with spud cannon, it was really annoying because of having to get to 150 yards. Total BS of course, and COULD NOT have been done in WW2, but look how the game-the-gamers reacted to my assertion of that fact: Remember this thread? It sure drew a line between the gamers and the simmers.

[TexMurphy]

Planes in AH will never be used the same way as they where used in WW2.... No plane, period.

Why?

Asume, I know this aint true but it can be, that each plane has identical performance as it had in WW2.

Even if this was the case no plane will ever be used the same way as it was back then.

First reason to this is the game setting with rooks/bish/knight.

We have a settting that pairs planes that where never ever paired in WW2. The discussion really ends here, but lets go on some more.

Maps. We have maps that arnt the same as the "maps" WW2 was fought in. The fact that we dont have the same terrain results in us not using planes the same way. Weather and clouds arnt in the game as it was in WW2, hence we dont use the planes the same way as they did back then.

Further we dont use the same mission structure as they did back in the WW2. This means that we dont fly the same way as they did.

Most importantly though. Our lifes arnt at stake. When we "die" we launch again in a few sec.

So we cant replay WW2 because we dont have all the attributes that defined aircombat and aircombat tactics in WW2.

All we can do is define aircombat in the setting provided to us, define aircombat in AH2.

The day we get ToD we will have to redifine aircombat once again. But not even then will we be replaying WW2 because the attributes that define the aircombat and aircombat tactics of ToD will still be very differnet from these that defined WW2, even though it will be closer then AH2 is atm.

Tex

[Mak333]

I know that HTC could put alot more realism into the game but why not?  Either they simply won't, or they aren't capable to put very complex situations into the game.  Right now the whole damage model is based on "hits"  Whatever lands on a target increased the targets vulnerability to the next "hit".  The bullets are simulated the same as bombs. If you put 2000lbs of cannon rounds into a destroyer, would it sink it in real life? No. Why? Its obvious that the cannons would never do any real damage to the ship, only penetrate the surface.  Now with bombs, should you be able to sink a ship if you place a bomb in the correct place right?  Yes, but HTC doesn't have the game this complex.... Either they can't code it, or they just don't want to. I agree with the people that think this is BS.  It should depend on the kind of ord you put on the target, not how much.  

On many of the fighter hanger missions Im in or run, it's rewarding to take down the FH's, yet disappointing when I am able to strafe it down with a few MG rounds if I miss.  On the otherhand it is just a simulation that can not be modelled the same as real life.

[TexMurphy]

Mak333

Im in no means disagreeing with you but there is a 3rd alternative to the cant or dont want to option.

They dont estimate it a investment worth it.

Everything takes time to code. Everything you code thakes time away from something else. IF they feel that there are other things with higher priority that will make the game better and make the game more profitable then expanding the damage model then its their call.

This is different from dont want to because dont want to can come from either ignorance or the simple fact that they dont want the game to be that realistic. So it is different.

The thing is with any game, not talkin AH in general, there are 100s of things that can be improved and/or tweaked. But they arnt done. Simply because the same people who cry for the tweaks also cry for new content and/or new game play options.

In the case of AH new planes and ToD.

Its a very fine line for a dev company to dance on, improvement to existing game play vs addition of new game play. If you ignore either of the two your game will die. Only if you can dance that line will you be able to run a game successfully over a long period of time.

I wount put any judgement to the decissions made by HTC because Ive not been around long enough to have enough knowladge about them. But all I know is they like everyone else are dancing on this line.

Tex

[Stang]

Beet, I think I've seen you in the MA only once so I really have no idea how you fly.  The point I was making on how I fly is that sometimes I sacrifice a lot of deaths trying to stop the hordes, like upping a field repeatedly to stop some 25 plane bish raid into a field that was undefended, and that kinda stuff is hell on stats.  And how did I take offense to "stats?" You know, the funny thing is we probably agree on more things about this game than we would disagree on.  The quake mode the MA is in right now sucks, but at least in that regard people are fighting.  The biggest problem is the people who choose to mass horde bases that have no one defending them.  For some reason the bish seem to do this more than anyone else.  The knights are always game for a good fight, and that is great for MA gameplay.   But these rediculous 25plane+ missions the bish throw at us repeatedly in peak USA MA times that only pop up on radar at the last minute before they hit is absolutely dumb.  I spent the entire week when Trinity was up chasing these hordes around, trying to get to where they were going ahead of them.  It was almost impossible.  When we would beat back one of their raids, it was like they would all auger in and then immediately up another field far away and try the same thing at a different field that had no one around it.  I think you'd have to agree that is just suckiness at its worst.  No fun, lame, they still could barely take a field, and they just about all died every time.  The bish really need to have some of their veteran pilots get ahold of that crap and teach them how to fight instead of just running around mass milking bases.  It's one thing to do this occassionally or when your counrty is in a hole and you need to capture some fields, but with the bish you can almost set a clock to when they start this stuff every evening around 9:00 est.  That is why I think the small maps are better because it actually forces them to fight somewhat and gives them less room to do this kinda dweeby stuff.  Yes, it's their $15, but comeon, this is a combat sim.  Last night the bish were getting hit hard by the knights, who made it to the bish homeland, and some bish got on ch200 and said, I sh*t you not, "All you knits at 12 (a base on the bish homeland) you better come to 18 (a nit base to the SW) if you want any kills."  This is so typical.  The bish are getting beat back so bad, and what do they do?  They don't try to stop the knights, they just take the path of least resistance and try to horde a field 30 miles away when their homeland is going to waste under a swarm of knights.  That is just idiotic, but that is the norm for the bish.  I'm sorry, but it's the truth.  Any time the bish ever commit to a fight I am totally shocked. Anyway...

Urchin, great post.  You hit the nail on the head.

[beet1e]

Stang,

I felt much better after reading your post, thanks. Yes I do think we'd agree more than disagree on AH related topics. Did you actually download and view that film? It was nonstop action... no wait, it couldn't have been - the pizza map was up! ;)

I was going to send you a private email to disclose some other stuff, and avoid hijacking Morph's thread any further, but you're not accepting mails through your BBS profile.