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Author Topic: Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)  (Read 3902 times)

Offline Karnak

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2004, 01:10:59 PM »
Or perhaps they will simply not give it a commander's cupola position.

They could also heavily reduce the RoF to simulate the loader's difficulties.

Those two things would help a lot.  At that point the T-34/76 would have some major disadvantages, but would probably earn good GV perks.
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Offline ygsmilo

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2004, 01:18:34 PM »
Good post Pongo.
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Offline Sikboy

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2004, 01:32:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
pfft allied flyers :D


At least I have the sense to fly an evil commie plane. :)

-Sik
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Offline GtoRA2

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2004, 02:21:52 PM »
Pongo is right on track, the T-34 76 by 43 was a death trap.

It gained its good rep when it faced the early war Panzer 3 and 4 with low velocity guns.

The T34 85 was better but still not as good as the Panther or Tiger.
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Offline Tilt

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2004, 02:37:52 PM »
I believe the T34-43 model did have a comanders cupula..........

The lack of the 3rd position in the main turret was certainly inhibitive............

Actually to me it is already modelled on the MkIV and the Tiger.......

When in the main gun position the field of view is highly restricted and I am often flicking (ineffeciently) between turret and cupula.......... (there is no GV F3 in the MA set up).

The commander would be better represented by some sort of info re the out side world when in the main gun sight.............

Possibly being able to see enemy icons ( at 3000 yards) thru the hull  when in the main gun?

In summary

Leave the T34 as the others are now and you are the comander/gunner torn between two jobs. Add SA type info to the gunner position and he has a commander directing his fire.
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Offline Pongo

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2004, 03:10:20 PM »
Being able to fly back and forth between an outside view using your top hat to quickly scann 360 degrees. and climbing in and out of the tank to be able to see arround are totaly different things. The net effect of the current game is far better SA then a real tank crew had. You can open your top hatch without effect on the survivablity of the vehicle...that isnt realistic at all. Giving the T34-76 that kind of ability is a fantastic departure from the real capabilities the vehicle had..as a direct result of its great balistic shape..big gun and low cost. You cant have everything. Letting the T34-76 off without paying the price for the decisions of the designers really is a bad idea.
Put in the T34-85. It fits way better in the game and should not be a fast tiger or anything like that. Properly modeld the Panzer IV will have it hands full with a T34-85..but it should be a good fight. The T34-76 shouldnt even be a good fight if its modeled properly
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Offline Angus

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2004, 03:23:39 PM »
So, did the T34's do horribly vs the Germans....?
Pongo, you threw in a good bone of T34's problems in the real life.
Now compare those to the merits of the T34, such as being able to move around very wildly in rough terrain, i.e. two or three times the Speed of a Panzer....
Or going where there were no Panzers..

On a plate-flat battlefield with 100% visibility, the Panzer from AH will outshoot the T34 we are about to get.

OK

Under any more troubled cirkumstances the T34 will be a serious enemy of the Panzer.  It is very much faster, roughy equally hard to hit, and can easily kill a Panzer in 1 shot if it gets near enough.

And there will be lots of them  
:D
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Pongo

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2004, 04:11:17 PM »
Are we willing to have 4 or 5 to 1 kill to death vs the Panzer IVH? That is what the real life performance was like.

The intial listing of the speeds of these vehicles is incorrect.
Their listed cross country speeds are 25 km/h for the T34-76 and 20km/h for the Panzer IV. The suspensions of the two vehicles probably made up the difference in what they could maintain.
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Offline Angus

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2004, 04:42:06 PM »
Never dug deep into that data, just quoted from Karnak.
The Anecdotal stuff I've read however all gives the impression that the T34 was a very fast cross-country tank.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Pongo

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2004, 05:11:28 PM »
It had great ground preasure for that time. Great gradiant climb perfomance from what I understand(could be important in AH) and good speed but a very poor performing suspension. That makes it bouncy and rough. important considerations when your forced to fight the vehicle through view ports instead of with the comander peeking out his cupola
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Offline Staga

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2004, 12:52:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
Karnak, that penetration value looks a bit suspect.  The T-34's BR-350P penetration is usually given at 92mm @ 500m.  Of course, there's always the matter of how penetration is defined in a particular data spec.


That penetration value would be Tungsten ammunition (APCR) at 0dgr deflection angle. Penetration for APBC from same range would be 70-75mm

btw with APCR ammo PzIV could penetrate 154mm from 500m and 97mm from 1500m, 0dgr deflection.

Source:
Lorrin Rexford Bird and Robert D. Livingston: "World War II Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery".
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Offline BALSUR

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fact
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2004, 01:50:28 AM »
Come on people, the bottom line is allied armor no matter if it was the T34 or M4's was no match for German armor. All the allies could do was flood the battle field with medium tanks and hope to win with sheer numbers. If you want to add a tank that will make a real difference in game play then add a Panther G model, was fast, heavily armored and carried a high velocity cannon. The T34's and M4's were used as cannon fodder. Mass numbers not quality was the name of the game back then. Since I got started here there is another subject to be had also and that is all the german machine guns are downgraded here so, their crap now. The pintle gun on a tiger was usually a MG42 which was the most feared machine gun of WW2. Check out the ballistics on the 7.9mm compared to the .30 cal or 30.06 of that time. You could upgrade the .50 cal to where it should be if you gave the pintle gun the power it desrves. just remember this is just my oppion no matter how blurred it may seem.


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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2004, 07:33:23 AM »
Nope the Tiger 1 did not have an MG42 as an AA MG.  It had an MG34.  The two guns have the same balistics as they fire the same round - the MG42 has a higer rate of fire..
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Offline Pongo

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2004, 09:27:47 AM »
I have seen pictures of mg42 pintle mounts, but the mg34 seems to have been far more common.
I dont know about the balisitcs..but they certainly could give the pintle mount its abiltiy to shoot 360 degrees.  And have it start out in the forward postition when you man it.
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Offline Karnak

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Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2004, 10:06:06 AM »
BALSUR,

I think you udersell the T-34/85 and IS-2.  While not as good as the Panther V G or Tiger I a good case can be made for them being better than any other German tank and certainly better than any western Allied tank that was built and used in significant quantity.


What do you mean about "upgrading the 50 cal to where it should be"?
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