Panzer IV H vs T-34/76 (43)

[GRUNHERZ]

There were MG42 pintle mounts on various vehicles.

But I have not seen them on Tiger 1.

[GRUNHERZ]

Stalin 2 was good for what is was designed to do, break through heavy fortified infanty/PAK positions.

It wasnt too great tank vs tank due to low rate of fire, but its heavy armor was a great feature.

[Pongo]

I think with the T34-85, Is2m combination the Russians didnt have to take second place to anyone. Very distinctive and cool tanks.  Powerful and fully developed.
Are they the equal to the Panther- Tiger II combination..No but they cost less then a third as much.

The Is2m can ignore the Panther and Tiger 1 frontaly. That is increadble. with ammo crates arround it and its 12.7mm on the roof the is2m is a tank that definatly has to be brought to Aces High.

[Karnak]

Pongo,

You mean IS2M, right?  Iosef Stalin 2M.

Il2M is the attack aircraft.

[GRUNHERZ]

That is made obvious by the context and the picture karnak..

[Karnak]

Actually GRUN, I'm really not that sure in my knowledge of tanks.  For all I knew there was also a Russian tank labeled Il2m.

[Wotan]

Rudolph Salvermoser, A Großdeutschland Veteran

Here's an account of Rudi's first contact with an IS2.

Rudi post's over oon the Feldgrau forums. Here's a link to his profile:

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=408

Feldgrau Forum

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/index.php

My fourth and final wound occurred on August 8, 1944 on a beautiful summer day about two miles south of Raseinen, Lithuania. Our tank was detailed to investigate, as the lead tank of the Company, the activities of the Russians in the vicinity of Raseinen. As we pulled up behind some bushes on a hill, I spotted a Russian T-34 tank diagonally crossing the valley in front of us. I had fired my first shot at the Russian tank when, at that instant, I sensed a shiny object approach our tank at a tremendous speed from the direction of eleven o'clock. Describing the event takes time, but this was an instantaneous occurrence. All I knew that danger was approaching and before I could shout, "Aufpassen!" (watch out!), there was a bright flash and then nothing - no sound no following explosion. I subconsciously crawled out of the tank. I regained consciousness when kneeling on the ground behind the tank. I saw my driver, also kneeling, in front of me. "What happened?", I asked him and he replied, "We got hit!" When I asked him where the other members of our crew were he replied, "They are dead." As the tank engine finally sputtered and died, I heard a moaning and told the driver, "I think one of them is alive, let's help." As we both leapt up onto the rear of the tank, we found the loader alive but he had a gun in his hand and was preparing to shoot himself. This was often the reaction of a tank crew member who, when his tank was hit and he seemed unable to exit the vehicle, he preferred to commit suicide rather than go through the agony of slowly burning to death or to be captured by the Russians. I immediately knocked the weapon out of his hand and told the driver, "Help me pull him out." We tried but found that we could not budge him for there was considerable debris throughout the tank's interior which had his legs trapped. At that moment, we heard our commander begin to moan. We moved over to the left side of the tank where we found him as securely caught in the wreckage as the loader. At that moment, Russian machine gun fire began strafing our disabled vehicle so, following our trained reactions, we jumped off the tank and went behind it. Following this, my eyesight was getting progressively worse, so I asked the driver, "Do you see anything?" - meaning, "Can You still see?" He obviously thought that I was asking him if he saw any Russians for he replied, "No." Well, I concluded, in that case I better go back for help, but when I informed of my intentions he said, "You look like a mess, your arms and face!" It was only then that I realized that I was indeed wounded. Both of my arms were burned - the right one so severely that the skin was rolling up. My shirt was completely burned off on the right hand side, and when I touched my face and head, all I could feel was a gooey mess. Moreover, my hair was totally burned away and blood poured over my face. Considering the extent of my injuries, it was incredible that someone had to tell me that I was wounded before I realized that I was injured! With comprehension came pain and I found that the only way I could relieve the excruciating condition of my arms was to raise them above me. It was like this that I stumbled my way back down the hill, barely able to see the track marks our tank made in the grass, to the gravel pit where help and safety awaited. By this time, all that I could see was a milky blur in front of my eyes, and a voice called out, "who is that?" "Rudi, from Tank 541!", I replied. "Oh, my gosh," he exclaimed, "is anybody else alive?" "Yes," I answered, "the other three are hurt, but we can't get them out and they need help." "Alright," he said, "we are getting help for them!" My sight, by this time, was almost completely gone, so I called out, "I am blind!" "You just stand there, help is coming," he replied. I was told later that one of the tanks broke away from the battle formation and towed my tank and crew back to safety. I went into unconsciousness for all I remember was that someone was speaking to me while I was lying on a cot most likely on the ground. Whatever he was saying seemed to me incomprehensible. According to my Verwundetenkarte (a tag with medical and other information that accompanies the wounded soldier), I was given the Last Rites by the Chaplain. My loader's and my conditions were considered grave enough that they had given us up as beyond help and, expecting us two to die shortly, they left us in the Field Hospital rather then ship us back to Germany. After about two weeks during which time I was still unconscious, my health began to improve and I recall gaining consciousness just as I was being unloaded from the troop train in Dresden, Germany.

Before the battle that nearly took my life, we were informed of a new Russian tank, the Josef Stalin III, that weighed forty-six tons and fired 122 mm projectiles. Because of its thick (120 mm), sloping armor, our 75 mm rounds would simply bounce off its skin unless we hit it from the side at a very close range. When I fired at the T-34 in the valley, I wasn't aware that there were a number of those monsters waiting two kilometers away at the edge of the forest. No sooner had I pulled the trigger than the Russian behemoth began firing. For once, the Russians struck our tank with their first round. The projectile hit our vehicle between the barrel and the barrel sleeve of our cannon. It tore our cannon off where it struck and, incredibly, entered the exposed chamber where it detonated, causing our loaded round to detonate as well. This tremendous explosion caused our waiting rounds, though not the magazine, to instantly explode as well. Eyewitnesses stated that our welded assault gun's armored roof was propelled from its position by a sheet of flame that rose about 100 meters into the air. I am sure this must have been an exaggeration, the force necessary to wrench that massive steel roof away from our tank and fling it through the air had to be considerable. Apparently, my training in mounting and dismounting in Bamberg as well as in Rastenburg paid off for I must have subconsciously crawled off the tank and sought cover behind it. Since our assault gun was totally destroyed and our crew miraculously lived through the ordeal, it became known as the "Miracle Tank of the Eastern Front." Our driver, who had survived the incident relatively unscathed, would not talk for five days. He had withdrawn into a world all his own, so I was told. He eventually snapped out of it and was assigned to drive another tank. On his first day back at the Front, he was driving his tank across a wooden bridge when it collapsed beneath him. Fortunately for the other crew members, they were sitting on the outside of the vehicle; but the driver was in his compartment at the front of the tank. When the tank crashed through the bridge it turned upside down and entered the water below. The only fatality was my driver, who drowned while trapped in the sunken wreckage.

For having been wounded four separate times, I received the Verwundeten Abzeichen in silver. This badge was issued to any soldier who suffered more than three wounds, or for the loss of a hand, foot, eye or complete deafness. Additionally, I was awarded the Panzerkampf Abzeichen (tank assault badge) for having participated in at least three successful tank engagements. This could also be awarded for tank action against antitank actions. The third and most prestigious decoration awarded to me was the Eisernes Kreuz II Klasse (Iron Cross Second Class). This medal was given for bravery beyond the call of duty and quite an honor if the recipient (such as I) was below the rank of Unteroffizier. I was recommended for the Iron Cross 1st Class, but was for some reason denied the honor. My awards, however, basically stemmed from my having destroyed a total of six Russian tanks - two of them on separate occasions and the other four in a single tank battle. The destruction of the last four occurred one day when approximately twenty Russian tanks attempted to breach our lines near Narva, Estonia. Somehow, I managed to smash all four in a matter of minutes, while another one of our tanks obliterated two in the same period of time. Meanwhile, our 88 mm antiaircraft/antitank battery succeeded in destroying four additional Russian tanks. Upon losing ten tanks out of their original compliment of twenty, the remaining Russians withdrew into the woods. There were other incidents, many of them leading up to the statement that I had described personal bravery and dedication to my comrades, that (combined) led to my receiving the award.

[Pongo]

Was he in a Stug?

[GRUNHERZ]

Sounds like it.

[BPNZ]

Hi everyone,

Just sharing some points here.

Armour effectiveness is usually considered to be:
thickness of plate / cosine angle of the projectile striking from the vertical x  effectiveness factor

This effectiveness factor might vary from about 0.5 up to about 1.25 depending mainly on
quality, type (cast or rolled, FH or Homogeneous) projectile/armour thickness ratio.


During the WWII Russian armour varied in quality depending on when and where it was produced.
I understand prior to 1942 it was generally of a consistently good quality both rolled or cast.
However during 1942 and much of 1943 the pressure to produce quantity plus the disruption to production caused many variations in quality.   The cast armour of which the USSR used exstensively was prone to flaws and inconsistencies during this time.   This produced variable levels of protection from tank to tank.
1944 and 1944 saw an improvement of casting technique with improved protection and reliability.
Later T34/76s had improved turret designs to give better protection and more working room to the crew.
Also be aware the thickness of side armour on the T34 gives about twice the protection of the Pzkpfw IV.


German armour was of good consisent quality up until early or mid 1944.
Scarceness of vital elements forced manufacturers to used subsitutes which produced armour which could be prone to cracking when hit.


When discussing performance of ammunition it must be remembered what type it is.
Some of the penetration figures in previous posts are for specialised types using extremely hard but scarce tungsten carbide.   T34s would count themselves fortunate to have any rounds of this type in 1942/43.   I understand supply improved during 1944.   Non tungsten Russian AP round also had the tendancy to shatter on impact with FH armour during 1942/43 as quality was inconsistant mirroring the situation with armour.

Pzkpfw IVH would probably not have any tungsten rounds at all, as 75mm APCR was discontinued in 1943 with only 50mm round still continuing to consume this important material for a time.

The T34 was more mobile the the IVH although in some versions its transmission was prone to failure.
The difference between the two when crossing hard ground would not be significant.

The result of all the above is that yes the Mk IVH should still have a reasonable edge on open ground.
However if ranges are able to be closed the result is in doubt.   Russian crew training and optics did not promote engagement ranges much beyond 750m.
The main edge Germany had was in its level of crew training, although by mid 1944 attrition and some improvements ment
the Russians weren't far behind in this regard.

As you all know it is hard for game designers (or anybody else) to come up with accurate modelling data, or for a game to model the effects of all features or faults.

If I can be of help, please let me know.   I have a German chart advising engagement ranges for the Tiger I vs T34, but being new here am not sure how to post it.   I have a reasonable collection of data on most AFVs.



Regard
Brian

[Pongo]

Would you agree then that the T34-85 has more parity with the Panzer IVH then the late model T34-76 does?

[Arlo]

Originally posted by BALSUR
If you want to add a tank that will make a real difference in game play then add a Panther G model, was fast, heavily armored and carried a high velocity cannon.  

The MA needs the Panther! The MA needs the PANTHER!

Ahem .... mmmriiiight.

Panzer ... Tiger ... yup yup ... keep adding more uber German tanks.

The MA needs them!


Shermie next baybee. MA don't need nuthin' until the sets for scenario matchups get their gaps plugged.

[Karnak]

BPNZ,

Do you have web space to save it on the internet?

If so you can use the following code to show images:

{img}http://members.arstechnica.com/x/karnak/Ki84data.bmp{/img}

Replace the "{}" brackets with "[]" brackets to get it to work.


If you do not have web space I can post it for you if you send it to me at:

aaholaR3M0V3@klassyR3M0V3.com

Removed the red text for my real email address.


I agree with Arlo in the need for a Sherman before we get a Panther, Tiger II or IS-2.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Karnak

I agree with Arlo in the need for a Sherman before we get a Panther, Tiger II or IS-2.

Bless you!

Doesn't matter if it's outclassed to me. A Western front Allied tank will go far to set up ground battle scenarios. The "Bulge" needs a Shermie.

Of course, now we're setting up well for Kursk.

I'd go so far as to suggest an allied medium or light tank and a Japanese tank for Pacific settings but that's not as dire as European mbts. Though tanks were certainly used in the Pacific, as well, most of the battles there involved fleet, air and infantry.

[Karnak]

"Japanese tank" is almost an oxymoron if you aren't Chinese.

Japanese aircraft, ships and subs were all competitive to one degree or another.  Japanese tanks were not.  IIRC they had some just starting production at the end of the war that on paper were nearly as good as the Sherman.

The the Japanese did a number on our tanks with was anti-tank guns.  They used them well enough to, for example, knock out every single tank we landed on Iwo Jima.  At least that's what I've been told on this BBS.