Author Topic: Refresh my memory, please, about HOs  (Read 2042 times)

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: Re: Re: Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2004, 01:17:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by debuman
IIRC, they didn't get the chin turret until the G model.  Also, a couple of cannon shells into the cockpit would kill the plane just as surely as spending time taking out engines or shooting off multiple parts.


Chin turret first showed up with the YB40 gunship.  It also was installed on some very late F models.

The early E and F models only had single 30 calibar MGs in the nose glazing.  But very quickly there were larger side windows installed in the nose and bracing for 50 cals in the nose cone.  The standard set up was a single 50 in a mount in the nose glass and single 50s on each side of the nose.

Some were modified with twin 50s in the nose as well.  Memphis Belle has two 50s in the nose plus two on the side.  So 4 50s in the nose was possible before the G which inintially went back to just the two 50s in the turret, but just as fast added back the larger side windows and guns there too.

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2004, 07:32:09 PM »
Yep, the HO. Never ever used in RL.

I met this gentleman at his Flight School Class's (43-C) reunion, held at our CAF hangar. These guys all started in PT-19's and we got 3 -19's together to give them all rides.

Dick Hewitt engaged two FW-190's (on separate missons) with true HO tactics. His comment to me was "we couldn't let them get to the bombers".

Read his book: " Target of Opportunity - Tales and Contrails of the Second World War"

"Richard A. Hewitt, a second year college engineering student in New York State, like so many Americans after the December 7, 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, chose to volunteer for service to his country. He joined the Army Air Corps in February, 1942. As a member of the Army Aviation Cadet Class, 43-C, Dick was commissioned as a second Lieutenant and received his wings on March 23, 1943.

After further training, he was assigned in the ETO to the 78th Fighter Group, 82nd Fighter Squadron, stationed at Duxford, Cambridgeshire, England, in September, 1943. Dick flew a total of 144 combat missions, combining a total of 400 hours of combat in the P-47 Thunderbolt and P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft.

During his combat tours with the 82nd, spanning over two years, he was credited with 8.3 victories, including 4 in the air; promoted to the rank of Major; awarded the Air Medal with 17 oak leaf clusters, awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with 4 oak leaf clusters, and the Silver Star. He commanded the 82nd Fighter Squadron from March, 1945 through June, 1945."

HO's were used. Get over it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline tce2506

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 133
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2004, 07:25:10 AM »
Just out of curiosity. If your in a turn fight, and you keep passing nose to nose, neither pilot can get to the others six, how many passes untill you start shooting? I'll normally wiat till the  third pass or untill the other guy starts shooting.

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2004, 08:20:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
This is actually true, although I still despise you for the HO-ing scum that you are. :D

For example, my gunnery absolutely blows goats, so I usually lose the HO whenever I give in to the temptation.  HOing, therefore, does take some skill.

But SCDR, the fact of the matter is that when a person HO's you, you can almost always use that to your advantage.  Simply point your nose below the other guy.  Roll and rudder a little bit to throw the other's aim off...it generally doesn't take much, as long as you _stay_ below his nose.  As he passes you missing, pull up sharply into an immelman.  Because of the fact that he spent his E and angle trying to get a shot on you at the last second, you are now above him and on his 6, and have the advantage.


Nop, if you do that against any fast plane and if he does not pull up sharply like you did, you will and up slow and below him by atlist 2K.  Sure way to die.  If he is pointing the nose down to get the shot on you, he is gaining E, not losing.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2004, 10:19:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SCDR
If someone would be so kind as to point me to a web site that
talks about IRL HOs. IMO I think HOing takes no skill. I will only
fire when I see the enmy start to shot, cuz I know I'm gonna
die.
I have read accounts of the LW using the HO on 17s, and I'm
trying to figure out why AH has HOs turned on for.

 SCDR


Not sure what you mean by HO's being "turned on" in AH.  In general, I would say you're taking the wrong approach.  When you say, "I will only fire when I see the enmy start to shot, cuz I know I'm gonna die," that to me sounds like you always make the same approach to the merge - barreling straight into the guy hoping that he doesn't take the shot.  Once he fires, you decide to return fire, but by that time, you're at a big disadvantage.     You need to decide before then whether you'll be taking that shot or not.  That should be a tactical decision, not an ethical one.  You need to make a split second risk assessment and choose the tactic that best fits the situation.  If you always go for the HO or never go for the HO, you're using a sub-optimal strategy.

Generally, in a 1v1 you want the other guy to commit to the HO shot.  If he's going to push, you want to pull unless maybe he's a boxer wanting to trade blows with a puncher.  The idea is to bait him into a low % HO shot in order to gain angles and position on him.  Let him overcommit and set him up for the counter.  Going low on the merge is a great way to accomplish this because because he has to really bury his nose to get enough lead for a shot.  You pull a lead immelman there and if he also pulls an immelman after the shot, you'll already be in his hind quarter following the initial merge.

IRL I would say that HO's are more effective than in the game even though they probably result in a higher % of shootdowns in the game.

As to anecdotes about head-ons, just grab a book of WWII air combat anecdotes.  You won't have to look too hard.  An amusing anecdote regarding the tactic can be found in James Howard's "Roar of the Tiger".  

"The Fourth had been flying P-47 Thunderbolts since that spring, so Blakeslee came to us as a veteran who could speak with authority based on experience.  Don proved very durable.  By the end of the war, he had accumulated a thousand hours of combat flying, more than any other American fighter pilot.

"In Blakeslee's briefing that afternoon, he explained we had three tactics to use against the enemy: (1) shoot down the enemy plane (or be shot down), (2) make the enemy fighter break off an attack first, (3) if the enemy fighter fails to break off, continue on a collision course.

"We were stunned.  Did he mean we should deliberately ram the enemy head-on?

"Blakeslee hesitated for emphasis and then said, "We never turn away from a head-on attack.  If we do, the word will get back to Luftwaffe pilots that the Americans break first in a head-on pass.  They will then have a psychological advantage of knowing beforehand what we will do."

"A young pilot in the front row asked what would happen if the German pilot followed the same orders.  Blakeslee looked down at the young man with a contemptuous smile and said, "In that case you've earned your flight pay the hard way!"

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2004, 10:27:20 AM »
"Not sure what you mean by HO's being "turned on" in AH."


  A left over notion from Air Warrior where HO's were disabled ("turned off").

Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2004, 10:29:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Nop, if you do that against any fast plane and if he does not pull up sharply like you did, you will and up slow and below him by atlist 2K.


If you pull up and he doesn't, how does he end up 2k above you?

Quote
 If he is pointing the nose down to get the shot on you, he is gaining E, not losing. [/B]


There's a big difference between gaining speed and gaining energy.  You can gain speed while losing energy and that's normally the case.  After making his dive, if he can't zoom back up to his initial altitude and still have his initial speed, then he lost energy that's not even including the work his engine was doing during that time.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2004, 10:49:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
"Not sure what you mean by HO's being "turned on" in AH."


  A left over notion from Air Warrior where HO's were disabled ("turned off").

And that is part of the problem I think.  People used to AW were taught poor ACM in that the direct HO was always a safe approach due to the forward shields.  When they moved to AH or WB they were used to an artificial restraint that wasn't there and the players of those games ruthlessly took advantage of the difference.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2004, 10:54:17 AM »
I agree Karnak.  Combine the lack of HO's with no collisions and "ACM"  took on a whole different, very unrealistic meaning.

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10173
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2004, 11:21:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
And that is part of the problem I think.  People used to AW were taught poor ACM in that the direct HO was always a safe approach due to the forward shields.  When they moved to AH or WB they were used to an artificial restraint that wasn't there and the players of those games ruthlessly took advantage of the difference.


who taught who poor ACM,  no one ever taught  "that the direct HO was always a safe approach due to the forward shields."

AW had HO's it was just a low percentage of them because of the randomizer that was incorporated.  from where I stand , AW flyers was not taught the elusive approach in which you have described.  most AW flyers that attended the training in AW, were taught  vertical lead turn merges, horizontal lead turn merges, etc........

if you flew AW, and you was taught this,  it was not from a Trainer!
maybe some RR flyer that  didn't know any better

it is a 50/50 deal you either do it or you don't!  always has been always will be!

only thing is a number of AH flyers choose to fly that way with out ever learning anything else....to me this is sad :-(
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline phookat

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2004, 11:24:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Nop, if you do that against any fast plane and if he does not pull up sharply like you did, you will and up slow and below him by atlist 2K.  Sure way to die.  If he is pointing the nose down to get the shot on you, he is gaining E, not losing.


What Pyro said, basically.

If he doesn't pull up, you will be behind and above him.  He may still be able to run away, of course.  But if he blows by you so quick, he had a very brief shot during the HO in the first place.  If he has so much starting E that he is able to both blow E on the HO and still do a more gradual zoom climb and pull away from you, then naturally he had a big starting alt advantage and it requires more than one move to remove that advantage.  In that case what I find works well as a second move is a vert scissors--he is going fast as he closes on your 6 and he can't follow the pull-up.  Then you roll and dive and top of him, and make him blow even more E to get out of your 12.

Offline Zippatuh

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 963
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2004, 12:36:02 PM »
About 10 years ago in Korea, $65 was all night with dinner before hand!

Any other questions?

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10173
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2004, 12:47:02 PM »
man, inflation strikes world wide, huh! hehe
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2004, 01:11:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
If you pull up and he doesn't, how does he end up 2k above you?

 

There's a big difference between gaining speed and gaining energy.  You can gain speed while losing energy and that's normally the case.  After making his dive, if he can't zoom back up to his initial altitude and still have his initial speed, then he lost energy that's not even including the work his engine was doing during that time.


First of all, you are right.  If he over commits himself or if he cannot zoom back up, he is in troble.  I am talking about the situation where he does not make these mistakes.  For example, this is something I do all the time against anything that turns good, usually a spitV.  After the merge, the spit - again not always - will pull up as sharp as it can and either loop or emelman.  I the process, he is draining e fast because he is pulling on the stick so hard.  On my end then, I pull back on the stick gently and turn a little to the left.  The result is, I will clime a lot higher if not because of my speed, then just because I did not 'turn on a dime?', I think you know what I am talking about.  Now the spit is left about 1k to 2k - in my experience - below me with my plane ready to roll for a canopy shot.

The assumption that if you push your plane under someones nose will give you an advantage, I think is wrong.  It really depends on what plane the other guy is in and what he does after the the planes pass eachother.  Just beacuse you pusshed your nose down a little, does not mean the other guy is going to make a mistake.  As far as e goes, how does one get an advantage over the other?  You are both doing the same thing.  Pushing your nose down.  (Again assume no mistakes on the bad guy)
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Refresh my memory, please, about HOs
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2004, 01:45:26 PM »
TequilaChaser,

I don't mean formal training.  I mean habits the game itself gave people.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-