Fw-190D-9 and the Eastern Front

[1K3]

Was 190D-9 operational in late war against the Soviets on the east or just restricted to high-alt bomber/fighter intercepts on the west?

[OntosMk1]

From what I've read the Dora was operational on both fronts as both a bomber intercpetor and a High altitude fighter.

[Wotan]

the D9 was neither a bomber interceptor nor a "High Alt" fighter.

[1K3]

but did it see operational service against soviet fighters that specialises lo-alt fights?

[OntosMk1]

1k3, yes most dogfights on the eastern front where taken place at Mid to low altitudes

And If the D-9 wasnt a bomber interceptor or high Alt fighter then what was it designed for?

[HoHun]

Hi Ontos,

>And If the D-9 wasnt a bomber interceptor or high Alt fighter then what was it designed for?

It was designed as a stopgap :-)

The engine was good for medium altitude only.

Since it had better performance than the Fw 190A-8, the D-9 was used as top cover for the A-8 bomber destroyers. That's probably how it got its "high-altitude" reputation.

As the D-9 was used as covering fighter, it was not used as bomber destroyer. Note that it was never (as far as I know) used with the extra wing-gun Rüstsätze that actually could have been fitted to the D-9 just as well as to the A-8.

Such extra wing guns only appear with the D-11/12/13 variants which feature the true high-altitude versions of the Jumo 213 engine. These fighters had enough power at altitude so that they didn't need to worry about the extra weight.

Of course, they were stopgaps, too, as Kurt Tank would have preferred to get the more advanced Ta 152, employing the same engines, into production. I believe the main reason this didn't work out were mass production concerns.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[GRUNHERZ]

DB603!  Thats what Fw190 needed!  And it could have entered into prodfuction in late 1942, giving the LW a 450mph 4000fpm climbing 3 cannon 2 MG armed fighter in service by the first half of 1943..

But the authorities did not allow FW to have that engine...

[Pongo]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
DB603!  Thats what Fw190 needed!  And it could have entered into prodfuction in late 1942, giving the LW a 450mph 4000fpm climbing 3 cannon 2 MG armed fighter in service by the first half of 1943..

But the authorities did not allow FW to have that engine...

Your killing yourself with this GH..let it go boy!
lol

[1K3]

I went searching on the net and i found that most East front air dogfights in late war were 109G, 190A vs La-5/La-7, Yaks (am i right?) and seen quotes about them. How about the 109D? I cant seem find quotes from soviets about the 109D or am i not searching deep enough?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Pongo
Your killing yourself with this GH..let it go boy!
lol

LOL

Maybe next I'll start looking at the Fw187 Falke debacle, this was basically a DeHavilland Hornet class plane by 1937, of course then the engines only made some 600hp - but is was 50mph faster than a Bf109 powered by the same Jumo engine... Basically the same as horet vs spitfire of the same power.. And it was faster with those 600hp engines than Bf110 was with 1100hp engines.  I wonder what a Falke would have done with 1100hp DB601s in 1940..  Or with 1350hp DB601Es of Bf109F...

[Crumpp]

Yes the Dora was used on the Eastern Front.  In fact the VVS captured a number of them in the last month of the war and actually flew a Dora Equipped fighter unit.

Here is the Climb:




Here is the level speed:



Notice in the remarks, under finish of the Aircraft, it says "Primed and Painted" NOT "filled and polished" as the english translated "FW-190A8" flight curve claims.  That curve was transcribed from this test conducted for the Ta-152 program.


Crumpp

[HoHun]

Hi Grünherz,

>I wonder what a Falke would have done with 1100hp DB601s in 1940..  Or with 1350hp DB601Es of Bf109F...

The Fw 187V-7 was to be fitted with 1350 HP DB601H engines (DB601E engines modified for surface condensation cooling) in order to beat the Me 209's word speed record.

Similar to Heinkel's attempt, this had to be abandoned due to the outbreak of the war.

The Fw 187B series (the order for which was canceled at the last moment) was designed for the DB601E, but unfortunately the documents on this variant were lost.

The Fw 187C series was to be fitted with the DB605A and would have yielded P-38 style performance. The Caesar was culled for unknown reasons when two prototypes were almost ready.

At one point, Focke-Wulf actually suggested the Fw 187 with DB605 as alternative to the Ta 152H because they thought they'd get superior performance from a twin.

The RLM finally decided they did indeed want an aircraft like the Fw 187C, but it had to be made from wood to save strategic materials. Tank designed a new, similar aircraft to fit the requirements of wood construction - the Ta 154.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[GRUNHERZ]

Ouch HoHun, this seems like a real world beater. If they thought it could do better than Ta152 then performance would clearly have been in Dehavilland Hornet terriotory. Ouch!

Now, Pongo, you see that kills me....  

HoHun IMO the Ta154 is much inferior design, the fuselage is much draggier, it has one of the worst wing-fuselage joints possible, the trike gear adds weight, and of course the cockpit visibility is atrocious. Not to mention that it only came about in 1945 instead of 1940..

Did the RLM really hate FW so much to deny the LW of such spectacular performers such as Fw187 and a DB603 Fw190 in favor of inferior messerschmit products like Bf110, 210/410 and the awful Me309..

[1K3]

new question...

Were they (190D-9) deployed in small, moderate, or huge numbers in the east?

[Crumpp]

Were they (190D-9) deployed in small, moderate, or huge numbers in the east?

By the end of the war, the majority of FW-190 equipped Jagdgeshwader's were flying Dora's or had begun conversion.

JG2 and JG26 were equipped entirely with Dora's and had phased out the Bf-109.  

Crumpp