Weapon experts, question for you

[Wolfala]

Originally posted by GScholz
Take a look at how thin aircraft skin is:








Anyone who thinks that rifle or cannon rounds would "bounce" off aircraft skin is in serious need of a firepower and penetration demonstration at their nearest army base.

OK, we need a caption for this. Suggestions?

[AVRO1]

Originally posted by GScholz
Anyone who thinks that rifle or cannon rounds would "bounce" off aircraft skin is in serious need of a firepower and penetration demonstration at their nearest army base.

Penetration is good when you get a good angle but at less then 5° from horizontal it would seem logical to assume that the same thing that happens with sloped armor could happen here.

It probably did not happen often, but saying it never happenned with all the shots fired on aircrafts in WW2 is just silly.

[phookat]

ACME Aircraft Manufacturing: Guaranteed Results.

[phookat]

Originally posted by AVRO1
Penetration is good when you get a good angle but at less then 5° from horizontal it would seem logical to assume that the same thing that happens with sloped armor could happen here.

Not that I know anything about this, but the comparison of roadrunner-shredded aluminum foil to sloped armor seems somewhat extreme.  The same logic indicates that a newspaper can deflect a round at 0.00001 degrees.

[Crumpp]

Penetration is good when you get a good angle

That's what I keep tellin her!

Crumpp

[GtoRA2]

How about

"DUCK you!!

[Pongo]

By the way Tony. Really like the new book.

[Vulcan]

Thanks guys, in summary it looks like yes ammo does deflect but it is the exception - not the rule - and certainly not the basis for a 90% degradation in weapons effectiveness.

[storch]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Thanks guys, in summary it looks like yes ammo does deflect but it is the exception - not the rule - and certainly not the basis for a 90% degradation in weapons effectiveness.

not even 20%

[AVRO1]

Originally posted by phookat
Not that I know anything about this, but the comparison of roadrunner-shredded aluminum foil to sloped armor seems somewhat extreme.

Imagine the bullets hitting at 1° from horizontal.
It won't go through the wing for sure since it's going in almost exactly the same direction as the wing.

So what happens?
Without testing their is no way to be sure.

The word impossible is what made me post.
Never say impossible unless you got proof.

I'm not saying it happenned all the time, just saying that it might be possible under very specific circumstances.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by phookat
Not that I know anything about this, but the comparison of roadrunner-shredded aluminum foil to sloped armor seems somewhat extreme.  The same logic indicates that a newspaper can deflect a round at 0.00001 degrees.

Yup. In fact a whole newspaper (not just one page) would offer more resistance to a projectile than aircraft skin would.

Projectiles were probably on more than a few occasions ricocheting of engine blocks and other high-strength components of the aircraft giving the impression of bullets "bouncing off the skin of the plane", but aircraft skin is in no way strong enough to actually deflect anything but hail, and sometimes even hail is a stretch.





Btw. Storch, nice character assassination. "Name calling" is your speciality it seems.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by AVRO1
Imagine the bullets hitting at 1° from horizontal.
It won't go through the wing for sure since it's going in almost exactly the same direction as the wing.

Why wouldn't it go through the wing? It would enter the wing at the point of impact and exit on the opposite side. A .50 cal round would for instance enter the wing near the trailing edge make a nice small hole as it punches through the thin skin, make similar small holes in the wing spar and any other wing structure in its path and finally make a small hole as it exits the wing near or at the leading edge. The bullet may be upset at some point and make the damage near the front of the wing somewhat worse, but not by much.

[Charge]

It depends on the relative speed. Two slow a/c with high muzzle velocity guns -> the penetration is inevitable what ever the angle. Two fast a/c in high speed with guns with light ammo eg. .50 Cal and moderate distance the probability of ricochet is high.

I don't really believe in that story of a Corsair pilot seeing his bullets ricocheting off Zeros wings. They were prolly ricocheting from wingspars after a clean penetration.

-C+

[GScholz]

No Charge, the impact of aircraft speed is almost negligible. An aircraft flying at 400 mph is travelling 177 meters per second. A .50 cal projectile has a muzzle velocity of 890 m/s ~2000 mph. If two planes are flying at 400 mph in a tail chaise the projectiles have a muzzle velocity of 1067 m/s relative to the ground, and still 890 m/s relative to the target.

Even if the really low velocity weapons like the MK108 30mm cannon were to shoot a solid slug instead of a HE shell, it would crash through a plane at 550 m/s ~1200 mph. Even the lowest velocity projectiles are still supersonic and not really "slow" by anyone's standard.

[Charge]

Of course but they also slow down more rapidly despite high initial velocity and their ballistic behavior is also different when compared to ground firing because of the transonic effects which are worse for lighter projectiles. 400 meters of firing distance is not the same when firing on the ground than firing in the air. AFAIK of course. I may be wrong.

-C+