Author Topic: Stuka Tank Buster for the planeset (Read 3577 times)

MOSQ · « **on:** October 12, 2004, 04:57:26 PM »

Pyro,
Can we get one of these? Just a slight modification to the one we have now.....

It was then decided to withdraw the remaining intact aircraft and relocate them to the Eastern Front. In the Eastern Front it was successful in combating the increasing numbers of Russian tanks. The new Ju 87G “flying tank destroyer” was fitted with two massive37-mm cannons. One pilot Hans-Urlech Rudel’s personnel score was an amazing 519 Russian vehicles destroyed. However, for this score there was also a price to pay, as he was shot down 30 times. On each occasion he was shot down by ground fire and not through air combat. He also who flew 2,530 combat missions and continued to lead Stuka formations in daylight after other Strukagruppen units had switched to the Fw–190’s. For the rest of the war the Stuka’s reputation steadily declined as an aircraft to be feared. Eventually it was reduced to the role of skulking on dark nights just above ground.

Kweassa · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2004, 05:15:38 PM »

Need perks for it. Otherwise, if the 37mm tungsten-cored AP shot does what it should do, nobody will ever ride the Hurri2D or Il-2 again.

The Hurri2D and the IL-2 is an excellent tank buster, but the Hurri2D needs a good concentrated aim to the tank roof to explode(not disable) a Panzer. Same with IL-2 - need to find right angles to disable or kill Panzers.

In the case of the Tiger, it is almost impossible to even damage it with the Hurri2D, and the IL-2 needs a very good aim, concentrated hits, and luck too. The Tiger even withstands the mighty RS-182 tankbuster rocket.

However, although it is a bit hard to aim, the 37mms on the Stuka will slice Panzers like knife through a butter and wreck havoc on the Tiger.

It takes some skills to kill a Panzer or hurt a Tiger with a Hurri2D and an IL-2 - just plain sucidal strafes doesn't cut it. But if everybody can have Ju87G for free, and just go crashing into the tank with guns blazing, since a few hits will punch through the armour.. why'd anyone bother to even use a tank?

I suggest 10~15 perks. Yeah, it's a slow lumbering plane, easy kill for a fighter.

But its ability to do what it is intended to do, is more than enough to unbalance the arena in terms of GV battles.

MOSQ · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2004, 05:27:19 PM »

Kweassa,
It only carries 6 rounds per gun, so I don't think it would need to be perked.
On the other hand, might be a reason to burn up some "bomber" perkies. Too bad kills in Bomber mode don't count in the scoring.

I like this:
"On February 10th of 1943, Hans Rudel flew his 1000th mission and became a national hero to the German public.Rudel was then posted to the new special "Panzerjagdkommando Weiss" unit formed at Briansk to test newly developed tank-busting version of Ju-87 D-3.Modified Stuka armed with two Rheinmetall-Borsig 37mm (BK) Flak 18 guns (each mounted in special canopy under each wing with 6 rounds of ammunition) was developed at the Luftwaffe's experimental station at Rechlin (near Neustrelitz, Germany). Prototypes were used at first against Soviet landing crafts in the Black Sea and in the space of three weeks, Rudel destroyed 70 such boats.In March of 1943, during a tank battle around Belgorod, Rudel knocked out his first tank with his new tank-busting Stuka - "... my rear gunner who said that the tank exploded like a bomb and he had seen bits of it crashing down behind us." (Hans-Ulrich Rudel)."

On April 14th of 1943, Hans Rudel was awarded Oakleaves to his Knights Cross.Captain Hans Rudel's squadron of nine tank-busting Ju-87 G-1 was assigned to support of the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf". On the first day of the Operation Citadel, during his first mission,Rudel knocked out four Soviet tanks and by the evening, his score grew to twelve. "We are all seized with a kind of passion for the chase from the glorious feeling of having saved much German bloodshed with every tank destroyed." - Hans Rudel.At the same time, because of Rudel's squadron'ssuccess, Panzerstaffels (Tank Destroyer Squadrons) were formed.Based on his experiences, Rudel developed new tactics for Panzerstaffels. He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side. Interesting fact is that attacking the back of the tank meant that the plane had to come from the rear flying towards friendly territory - great advantage if the plane got damaged during the attack.

Pongo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2004, 05:41:54 PM »

I believe that later operational versions had 12 or 18 rounds. Not sure though.
But yes. It should be in the game.

Kweassa · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2004, 05:53:38 PM »

Quote

It only carries 6 rounds per gun, so I don't think it would need to be perked.
On the other hand, might be a reason to burn up some "bomber" perkies. Too bad kills in Bomber mode don't count in the scoring.

It's more than about the ammunition Mosq.

An unskilled pilot in a Hurri2D can use all of his total 30 rounds of 40mms, or hundreds of 23mms in an IL-2, and not be able to kill a Panzer. With a Ju87G, he can just go guns blazing kamikaze and kill a Tiger.

Now, with the typical vehicle spawn 3~5 miles away from the airfield, he can up again and again and again and again and kill every tank he sees even if he dies each time.

Ofcourse, some might say that this is the same with IL-2 or Hurri2Ds. But like mentioned, these planes have the guns to kill a tank but its not an easy job. I can kill about 1 tank, and damage 2~3 more with an IL-2 each sortie.

I like tank busting, and while I'm not as much as an expert as some people are, I consider myself to have quite a bit of more experience than the average guy in an IL-2 and usually achieve much better results then they do.... but even I can't do the job myself if there are 5~6 tanks marching to the field.

If I was in a Ju87G, I'd be able to kill six tanks in one sortie, go rearm and kill six more respawning.

Bring in a free Ju87G and the neophyte of all neophytes can go kill a couple of tanks. With only 2~3 defenders at a field upping in Ju87Gs and not even 15 tanks would be able to march to the field. It means the extinction of IL-2s and Hurri2Ds in the arena, and an end to the need to 'practice tank busting'.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:03:26 PM »

Alll these comments are about IL2 23mm cannon which is all I use to kill tanks.

An IL-2 easily disables a Panzer IV provided the battle takes place at seal level where the IL2 climbs well enought to get a bit off the gound quyickly. A turret kill or an engineb kill are both good, they will stop the panzer from doing its mission.

An IL-2 is practically useless against a Tiger. Yes i have killed one or two with an Il's cannon but it isnt worth the time. This is good for the tiger since its cost so much.

A 37mm armed stuka would be a bad choice to hunt Panzers becausec the IL2 is so good at it and has so much 23mm cannon ammo and it can uise those guns for self defense.

However a 37mm stuka would be murder for Tigers and really every possible heavy perk tank in AH. I read that this 37mm gun firing its special ammo can penetrate some 143mm armor at close range, maybe that high but the figure is certainly over 100mm.

This means any perk tank can be killed with one shot to the side, a tiger 1 can be killed frontally.

So I dont think we will see this 37mm Stuka wth its killer guns any time soon.

In the meantime I would really like that we get a Stuka with 20mm cannon and a choice of special AP ammo, same for the 190F8.

Panzerblitz rockets for the F8 and D9 would be great too, but they might have the same poroblem as the 37mm stuka!

Karnak · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:09:45 PM »

A few comments.

1) It isn't really easy because they'd be updating the Ju87D to AH2 standards at the same time.

2) How common was the special ammo for the 37mm cannons? From the way you're talking it was common as dirt and HTC would have no choce but to model that ammunition.

3) Any sort of fighter cover for the GVs would be absolute murder to the Ju87Gs.

AVRO1 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:27:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo
I believe that later operational versions had 12 or 18 rounds. Not sure though.
But yes. It should be in the game.

That might explain why FA3's Ju87G have 12 rpg.

Either that or their loadout is wrong.

Urchin · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:48:00 PM »

Nah, the Ju-87G had special clips that were 2 standard 6-shot clips stuck together somehow.. so it had a total of 12 rounds in each guns.

I REALLY want to have one of these in the game... all the Ju-87G was was a JU-87D with a pair of big cannons slung under the wings.

As far as "it would murder all GVs and mean the end of the ground game" .. no it wouldn't.

I enjoy killing tanks. I used the Hurri-2D pretty exclusively for a tour a couple months back. You want to know something?

That plane "murders all GVs and means the end of the ground game".

One shot to the Tigers turret from a Hurri-2D and it has no more turret. A couple shots to the roof and you can usually kill one, that seems to depend on luck though. But you can definately disable the turret and engine and leave it sitting for dead. You won't get the kill on it, simply because someone else will do more "damage" to it than you did by completely disabling it.. but it'll be dead nonetheless.

You want to know why the IL-2 still gets WAAY more use than the Hurri-2D? Hell... why the Hurri-2C and Spitfire still see more use as "tankbusters"?

The Hurri-2D is completely and utterly helpless when it comes to A2A combat... and there aren't to many instances where you'll be able to kill tanks without having at least one enemy plane come down to try to kill you. The IL-2 is a fantastic plane.. it can knock out Panzers with ease and Tigers with somewhat more difficulty (the Hurri-2D is better for knocking out Tigers, the IL-2 for panzers)... but the IL-2 is also fantasticly lethal vs stupid enemies, and it is much tougher than the Hurri-2D is.

So basically a JU-87G would be a less manueverable Hurri-2D with more potent guns. The guns would still be all but useless against airplanes, so it would still not see as much use as the IL-2 or the Spitfire/Hurri-2C.

As far as "suiciding" goes... have you played around in tanks? Generally, there is plenty of cover to hide around. Typically, the 1337 gamer d00ds use Lancasters or B17s to carpet bomb tanks when they haven't got the skill to use an IL-2 or Hurricane.. I don't see many people using the JU-87G as a suicide attacker. It is much less effective than simply taking a formation of heavy buffs and carpetbombing from 500 feet.

MOSQ · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:48:56 PM »

Kweassa,
1) If you want to kill a Tiger now the most effective attack plane is the JU87 with it's bunker buster bomb. So I don't think the gun pods would be any big difference, especially with only six shots per gun. 99% of us will use all 12 rounds in one or two passes.

2) The JU87 is unarmored, or at least no where near as armored as an IL2. To get close enough to hit with your 12 rounds, most pilots will close to D400-200. At that range the pintle guns on the Panzer/Tiger will be very effective too.

I don't think it needs to be perked. If you perk it, you should perk it's 1800 KG bomb too. I don't see anybody complaining about Tiger deaths to JU-87 bombs now. (However my Tiger was killed last night by a Lancaster flying over at 600 FT and unloading on me. Lancasters were well known in WWII as low level tactical anti-tank bombers. NAUGHT!!)

Karnak, Do you think to add the gun pods they would have to re-do the entire plane to AHII standards?

MOSQ · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:11:27 PM »

One more argument for it:

If we are getting the T-34, the JU-87G would be the perfect air adversary for it. It would add a lot to the Special Events to have these vs T-34s, and not IL-2's taking their place to attack the T-34s.

May the Battle of Kursk begin!

Armour and troop concentrations were also built up by both sides with the Russians amassing 1,300,000 men, 3,600 tanks, 20,000 artillery pieces and 2,400 aircraft. The Germans also assembled a formidable fighting force which was slightly smaller with 900,000 men 2,700 tanks 2,000 aircraft. As well as the three premier Waffen SS divisions taking part.

The German attack finally began, in the afternoon of July 4, 1943, as planned. The German armor spearheads, led by the most armored and most powerful Tigers and Elefants, advanced forward in the wheat fields toward the Russian lines. Then came wave after wave of anti-tank aircraft attacks by both sides, German Stukas attacked dug in Russian tanks and Russian Sturmoviks attacked the German tanks. The fighters of both sides engages in air combats over the battlefield, and each side's massive heavy artillery also fired.

Urchin · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2004, 08:08:38 PM »

Just some stats to back up what I'm saying..

I'll go by Tour, then the rank of the plane as far as panzer kills go (i.e. most kills is #1, second most is #2)

Current Tour

Il-2 907 kills #1
110G 277 kills #2
P-38L 195 kills #3
Lanc 179 kills #4
Hurri-2C 123 kills #7
Hurri-2D 98 kills #9

Last Tour

Il-2 2236 #1
110G 809 #2
P-38 512 #3
Lanc 425 #4
Hurri-2C 306 #6
Hurri-2D 150 #15

Tour 55

Il-2 1423 #1
P-38 772 #2
110G 642 #3
Hurri-2C 579 #4
Hurri-2D 165 #14

Tour 54

Il-2 1593 #1
P-38 1027 #2
Hurri-2C 798 #3
Tiffy 758 #4
Hurri-2D 268 #13

Tour 53

P-38 947 #1
Il-2 793 #2
Nik2 760 #3
Hurri-2c 735 #4
Hurri-2D 81 #22

It can easily be seen that is spite of the fact that the Panzer IV got "toughened up" Hispanos can still kill tanks (although in HTC's defense.. the Hispano actually could get through the armor on a Panzer IV at close range and relatively steep diving angle). Because of this, the -2C is a more popular choice than the -2D, because the -2C is quite capable of killing a plane with a short burst as well as a tank. It simply takes to much effort to actually hit with what is effectively a single shot anti-tank weapon mounted on a plane.

Tony Williams · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2004, 08:17:06 PM »

A few comments from RL:

The BK 3,7 came with 6, 8 or 12 round clips. The tungsten-cored ammo seemed to be standard (it was introduced at the same time as the Ju 87G) although other types were used for different targets.

The BK 3,7 with Hartkernmunition could indeed penetrate up to 140mm, but that was in ideal conditions: 100m, and 90 degree striking angle. Penetration fell off sharply as the striking angle worsened and the range increased. That's why Rudel eventually had his guns harmonised at 100m - it was to stand a a chance of penetrating the Russian tanks.

The 40mm Vickers S would penetrate around 50mm (range and angle unspecified). The 23mm VYa only around 25mm (400m range - 30mm at 100m). Having said that, it is very difficult to compare penetration stats because they may have been tested in very different conditions.

The Hurri IID was ineffective against Tigers, although it could cope pretty well with a Pz.IV. I can't see the Il-2 achieving very much against a good tank with the 23mm - the 37mm NS-37 was a different matter, although there weren't many Il-2s with that gun.

This pic below gives you some idea of the relative power of the cartridges. From left to right they are: .50, 20mm Hispano, 23mm VYa, 30mm MK 101/103, NS-37, BK 3,7, 40mm S Gun. It comes from the article on 'Tankbusters' on my website - which is worth a read if you're interested in this subject.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

Urchin · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2004, 08:24:01 PM »

Tony, the Hurri-2D may have been ineffective in real life, but it is quite effective in AH.

I think this is because the penetration was there, but in real life you had to worry about dying if you made a mistake pulling out of your 45 degree dive at 300 feet, whereas in AH you just up again if you hit a tree.

Still takes far to much effort for 99.999% of the population though.

Tails · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2004, 08:48:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
It takes some skills to kill a Panzer or hurt a Tiger with a Hurri2D and an IL-2 - just plain sucidal strafes doesn't cut it. But if everybody can have Ju87G for free, and just go crashing into the tank with guns blazing, since a few hits will punch through the armour.. why'd anyone bother to even use a tank?

Why does anyone bother to use a tank now? Both panzerknackers we have now (Hurri-D, IL-2) can kill a ground vehicle in one pass suicidally. I should know, I do it occasionally when I get wound up enough. And the exsisting AT aircraft are actually, to some extent, able to put up atleast a token defense against fighters.
The Stuka-G cant. Best it can do is turn, and that is assuming that it has the same maneuverability as our current Stuka. Put a perk tag on it, and noone will fly it in the MA, period.

Now, having said that, why is everyone so worried about there being a threat to the perkified Tiggers? Dont we take risks every time we fly out in a perk vehicle? The Me-262, Spit 14, Tempest, Ar-234, all of them have weaknesses that can be exploited if the pilot is not careful, why should the same not be true of a Tigger? It's about time the tread-heads with perks to burn had a good reason to be nervous when the amount of red in the air is greater than the amount of green.
I sure as hell wouldnt drive a Tigger, with Stuka-G's about, if I didnt know that the air support was their to keep me safe.