Good E tactics?

[Hammerhead]

I fly the P51 mostly and of all the tactics I tried it seems to be the best is the simple vertical loop,(sorry but I am poor at technical terminology   ). I tried that quite often, especially against the Niks and P47s it works fine, I still though lack a good defensive manoever against the LA7s and the Hogs. They still get me everytime. Can someone tell me a few good moves against these aircraft?

"Bring the M24 Chaufee to AcesHigh"

[Am0n]

(i have the total opposite problem, i fly the F4 and i cant beat a P51 for nothin, go figure.)

I know basics, but they come in handy.

Never try to verticle loop to get someone off your 6, unless you are going extremely fast and you know that they cannot follow the movement. (some of the turn fighters dont handle speed so well)
 
Otherwise that is a very easily countered maneuver. Very easy to follow you up the loop.

If you are going to try a verticle loop i strongly suggest rolling and changing courses while in the loop to at least give your self a chance, some planes dont roll as well as others so this does come in handy.

Exmple: you pull striat up veritcle while climbing roll 90' and continue pulling back. Now if the other plane is a Spit for example (rolls slow at high speed) he will not be able to mimic that move so he will continue on the same strait course and you will come out nearly on his 6. This is all granted that you follow the first rule, you must have great speed, if your slow he will follow you through and eat you up.

The p51 can out scissor a lot of of other air craft (not the F4 though IMO), nothing like watching those cocky turning spits freeze in there tracks when the stall out trying to follow you. This move is a 6 clearer. Also good for forcing something to over shoot you.

Scissors: Draw in your mind a winding series of S curves. Now you are going to fly that path. Before every turn you want to flip 90' in the direction of the turn and pull back into the turn. So if there are 4 curves that 4 90' rolls you do to compencate.

 What happens here is the other slower rolling air craft (the one persuing you) wont be able to keep up with you if he takes the bait and tries to follow there is a great chance he will stall out and not be able to do anything at all, a sitting duck he will be, with no speed, nothing but the hopes that he has some alt to fall and gain energy/speed.

As far as attacking tactics, hopefully one of these other guys can help ya out. Im not to advanced in attacking, being kinda a rookie i focus on staying alive then after that is accopmlished i can go for the kill.

further more you will be grabbin your chute a lot if your not used to energy fighting. It takes a lot of patients and concentration.

Stay fast, stay a live.

Good luck

[Ghosth]

In the P51 you need to be above 10k & have a altitude & E edge. If you don't have both upon spotting a La7 reverse & run. Don't dive, the lower you are the happier he is. Don't climb, he'll run flat & zoom up once he's closed the range. Run level for friendly's, ack, or hope he runs out of fuel before he catch's you.
La7 is deadly below 10k, tough up to 18k, above 18k you hold the advantages.

A pair of pony's 12k or higher can give a la7 a real workout, but stay high, stay fast, keep bounceing him so he can't build up E.

As to the F4u, they shouldn't be that hard to kill. Duck the intial HO's, fly lag pursuit, eventually your speed will wear them down.

[Kweassa]

Being in a situation where you won't have to see a LaGG-7 at all, is probably the best tactic there is   La-7s become initially mediocre planes over 18k. When you face a La-7, always note your speed and altitude in engagements. Stick to the books, follow good rules, keep in mind the fine points of BnZ, and Don't Ever Chase him under 15k.

 As for Hogs, they are good planes, but acceleration and top speed, energy management is more advantageous to the P-51D. P-51s are awesome planes, but it takes a long long time to recover E once it is lost(unlike La-7s, or Bf-109G-10s..). Strict discipline is the ey to survival. U got the better end, and the enemy chooses to dive and run.. then let him go. U've won the fight  

 BnZ planes, unlike furballing monsters(N1Ks and Spits..), have a hard time in striking the coup-de-grace(but also, unlike N1Ks and Spits, u have a high chance of survival). Always remeber 90% of BnZ tactics is about sneaking in, and downing an unwary opponent. If he notices, and chooses to run, leave him to others.  

[Naudet]

Hammer, fighting LA7 and Hogs below 15-18k is not a healthy tactic with the P51.

The La7 is for sure the best low alltitude plane AH has. This is due to its construction, on the eastern front most fights were fought below 6000 meters (20K), normally at alts around 2000-3000 meters (6-10K). So the LA7 is close to unbeatable at those alts due to the construction advantages it has (assuming same pilot skill).

In the same way the Hogs has advantages over the P51, the pacific war was also a "low alltitude airwar", and the Hog ist designed for that specific arena. The Hogs is generally said to be better in nearly all aspects below 20K (especially the F4U4, but that we dont have yet) than the P51.

THe P51 is deadly at high alltitudes, thus in AH (were action is mostly low-mid) try to start every engagement with alt and work with this alt advantage.

And as Kweassa said, stick strictly to ur rules. It sometimes can be hard, cause u get greedy and think "There must be a way how do get him that kill." But if u engage an LA7 and low-mid alts there is a real good chance he will beat u up.

[Hammerhead]

Thank you guyz for your replies.  
But , I have a few doubts,    

AMON:- Do u mean that the P51 can outroll the spits? Everytime I c a spit I RUNNNNN  
I have tried scissoring a few planes but I mostly run out of speed during those pulls after the 90 degree rolls. I know that speed=life so I dont try the scissors too often and then too only with WEP.

GHOSHT:- What do u mean by LAG PURSUIT? Do I have to slow down to keep on his 6?

KWEASSA:- What do u mean "unlike ...a high chance of survival?" I almost never get killed in a SpitV (thats y I started flying P51s) and when I do itll be thnks to a lucky shot or a sudden burst of a few 20mms that rips things off.  

I am quite new to the buisness of E fighting and so I guess I just about manage a few hits before they hit me     .
I also wonder if the P51 is the right one to fly for  energy newbies (like me). Got a better one?  

One more thing:-
I read somewhere in the forum that the P51s Aux tank severly reduces the aircrafts performance. This true?

Bring the Mustang IA to Aces High

[ 09-29-2001: Message edited by: Hammerhead ]

[Ghosth]

"GHOSHT:- What do u mean by LAG PURSUIT? Do I have to slow down to keep on his 6?"

(Looks around to see if Lephturn is watching)

Emmm well ok it's like this.

If you keep your nose pointed directly at the plane all the time, thats "Pure Pursuit". Fine if your in guns range and your just waiting for a good shot opportunity.

If you need to close the distance, you'll put your nose AHEAD of the plane, thats "Lead Pursuit" It helps you close the distance quicker by cutting across the corners.

If you want to save E you'll point your nose behind the plane, follow whatever moves he makes but WAIT till you are where he was when he made it. Thats Lag pursuit. If he turns hard, if your flying lag pursuit you can actually follow him & not turn as hard. You can SEE where he is going & fly a smooth low E loss path to get there behind him.


"One more thing:-
 I read somewhere in the forum that the P51s Aux tank severly reduces the aircrafts performance. This true?"

P51's aux fuel tank, along with the 190's Aft Fuel tank do significantly effect performance. I'd suggest in pony to roll with 50% and DT's. Lose the DT's upon seeing cons.
50% internal fuel in pony will keep you airbourne for a LONG time.

[Hammerhead]

I C I C, thanks for clearing that out.
I follow, and will follow  

I thought that only wing tanks affect performance ( greater distance of mass distribution so slower roll rate and all that   ) if what u say is true (and I believe it is) then I'm getting ready for some killing times ahead      

Bring the Mustang IA to Aces High

[Vulcan]

The La-7 has two major weaknesses: it doesn't bleed E very well; and it has limited fuel.

So, drag the little bastard all around the arena, sooner or later he'll have to turn back or ditch. Alternatively, if you do get low use some mixed vertical reverses right near the deck, like an inverted Split-S. A lot of the times when the La tries to follow he doesn't bleed the E and ends up in greater arc which quickly La meet ground. Around half my La kills come from this.

[Am0n]

Originally posted by Hammerhead:


AMON:- Do u mean that the P51 can outroll the spits? Everytime I c a spit I RUNNNNN    

Running is a great idea if there is multiple enemies in the area because you are correct in saying speed is your health.

But at slow speeds the p51 will out roll the spit, i belive even at high speeds it will out roll it. If you can get a spit to dive on your 6 and you scissor they will not be able to stay with you.

Try not to make it to obvious buy starting to scissor them quickly, make the first 2 rolls far apart so they get the impretion that you are attempting to turn fight them, any spit pilot would jump on that would-be easy kill any time. Once they fall into your trap start to make the turns closer together, remeber when you are slow from this manuever, they are even slower. At this point you have the edge, the spit is nearly stalled out and you can out manuever them, if you make wide angled attacks.

Im far from a expert ace but i found this is good to shake those pesky spit nerds. None of this information is written in stone, just gathered from personal experiences.

good luck, hope this helps.

[geistx]

First a disclaimer, I am not an ACM expert by a long shot, but I can share some things I have learned via trial and much error.  Please feel free to deconstruct, criticize, change/add to anything I say, it helps the learning process.

A successful tactic (or it could be luck) that I have had against La-7s in a F4 is try a bit of a shallow dive when they are on my six to gain some speed and force them to gain speed then at around d500-d600 drop throttle and flaps (2 notches) and pull a hard turn.  Often (not always) I can force an overshoot (since I have not had much luck running from the La-7 except when above 15k).  I usually then end up in a scissors or turn fight.  I have also done this against Spits, P-51s and P-47s with some luck, however the P-51 is usually moving so fast that when I cut back they are long gone.

I used to pull up into a stall and then try and roll back down on them but more often than not I ended up "stagnant" in the air and an easy target, which is why I started doing the dive/turn.


Alright I just read this post and Lephturn explains things far better than me and uses the correct terminology:

P47 vs P51 at hi alt

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: GeistX ]

[DanielMcIntyre]

I only fight BnZ, TnB is just flying around in circles waiting for a BnZ'r to come kill ya imo.

I always go at least 20k, usually 25k alt.  One trick I like is spot a enemy plane below you before his icon shows up, dive down and get max speed and level wep.  When he spots you your coalt but real fast, he zooms, you got so much E he's dead meat, he dives just go back up and try again.

Regards the La7 encounter, try and fool him, pretend you don't see em, hit wep and get as much speed as possible flat, let him get on your six about 800d, break sharp and then roll up and over onto his 6 snapshot.  I fly tiffie mostly and this works pretty good.  La7 wont be able to follow your turn if your fast, and should be in front of you after the roll.  If you miss the snapshot thou you r dead meat  

My BnZ Rulez
------------

* get max alt
* use a hard hitting, good diving plane A8, Tiffie, P47, p51 seems little weak in guns
*always hit the highest enemy, N1K high, C47 low, hit the N1K first
* miss first pass, don't turn, get back up

[Lephturn]

Good job explaining lag persuite Ghosth.  

The idea of lag pursuit is simply to stay behind your enemy.  Instead of slowing down, you make your flight path longer than his so you stay in his rear quarter but with more speed/energy.  Then when you have a good chance at a high percentage shot, you use that extra energy to pull your nose into lead pursuit where you need to be to make the shot.

Zygote has a good tip about hiding your energy in speed.  Especially in the P51, this is a good tactic.  Many times your opponent will mis-judge your energy state if you appear to be at the same altitude or lower.  Combine this deception with careful flight path adjustments so you don't close as fast as possible, and the enemy will under-estimate your E state much of the time.  By managing closure, I mean don't head straight at the guy, angle off a bit one way or the other just as you enter icon range.  The best way to do this is to fly to a point slightly below his nose, and off to one side.  This not only decreases the closure rate to some degree, but sets up for a merge where you hold the advantage.

[clouds]

Hi all.
If u want an exaustive tractate on TnB, BnZ, HnC, HnR u could consult http://www.simhq.com.
In the 100 pages and more of that manual is enclosed the miracle of dogfighting considered as a science and when, how, where, why to do what.
Lag pursuit,......u will find it there and  100 other little things that  are the bibble of dogfighters.
Good read and over all good luck.

[Midnight]

Hammerhead

I'm CO of the 412th FS "Braunco Mustangs" Aside from the very occasional hop in another plane and a few 262 rides since 1.08, the P-51D is my only fighter A/C.

Some of these guys have valid points, but there are some major misconceptions about how some of them fight in the P-51D.

1. (they are right) E is everything in this plane. Do whatever you can to fight with the E advantage (be it speed or altitude) Anything under 200 IAS and your P-51 makes a great target, as you won't have enough speed to even manuever well.

2. Anyone who tells you to take off with 50% fuel is not considering the the fuel performance of the P-51 in AH, or missing the point of going up high before engaging. At 75% fuel load (my standard) the P-51 will burn off the AUX tank in 3.5 minutes. From Sea-level, you will achieve about 15-18K in that time. You want to be at that altitude before you start fighting ayway. Two full wing tanks will last you another 40 minutes before they run dry, which is plenty of time to fight and still fly home.

If you take off with wing tanks, burn the AUX first (manual fuel selection) If you end up finding the enemy before your DTs run dry, you can always drop it off (I say it, because I usually carry one and drop the other on the runway. BTW, one DT will last a total of 16 minutes)

3. You can fight and win against almost any A/C as long as it is 1-v-1. LA7s require a little more tactics than an F4, but only because they can turn so hard. The big thing is to always go UP if they turn. Never turn with them, as you will bleed E, loose advantage and will not be able to get it back if you are low. Basically, If I can't shoot them during a diving attack run, I pull up and set up another.

The F4-U4 has a huge amount of vertical capability. It is very hard to rope one, and they can get that nose up as you are extending, so be watchful.

3. Don't get caught low in a sky full of high bandits. The P-51D doesn't scissor very well in comparison to others and looses E more readily than most while down low. Acceleration is also fairly poor, but WEP offers a pretty good increase, most noticable under 5k.

4. When attacking an enemy from a higher altitude, you shouldn't need any WEP. I find that I am usually trottling to idle and using rudder to avoid compression. I too like to come down on bandits from up high, most are sleeping anyway.

5. WEP is a valuable resource in the P-51. It will only run for 5 minutes (from normal engine temperature) before running you into the red. Use it only when you really need it. Also, look at the performance chart, WEP has almost no effect between 12 and 15K and is useless above 26K, so don't bother with it.

Lastly, the P-51 is best when flown with at least 1 wingman, where you can use it's speed advantages to double attack enemies. With that, I invite you to check out the 412th Fighter Squadron webpage. If you are really interested in flying the P-51 (B or D) then the 412th offers one of the best environments to do it in.

Click on my sig pic to go to the 412th Home Page.

Wing up, Get kills, Be happy!

Major Midnight - CO
   

The 412th is actively seeking P-51 Mustang pilots. E-mail me for more information      davidlj@charter.net

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Midnight ]