No (more) guns please - we're British

[Suave]

There are towns in the USA where every household has at least one firearm and it is illegal for the police to carry guns.

[Steve]

Why would you leave your keys in the car, even in a safe neigborhood??

I always know where to find them.  I leave the keys in all  my vehicles, it's just that 3 of them are garaged.

[Momus--]

Jesus, does this argument ever go away?

1. There are so many guns in circulation in the USA and ownership is so culturally engrained that gun-control for the purpose of reducing gun-related deaths would be a pointless measure. Gun ownership for self-defense thus becomes a logical consequence.

2. In the case of the UK, there are are still relatively few guns in circulation and indeed this was also the case prior to the handgun ban. Controls restrict the supply and keep black market prices relatively high.

3. Blanket comparisons between the two cases are basically nonsensical. The US is basically screwed when it comes to firearms in the hands of criminals, so arming the general populace makes some sense from this perspective. The UK however is by and large a lot less screwed, so the mothod of containment for the problem, i.e. reducing the supply, makes a lot more sense.

4.The two main protagonists in this ongoing discussion are either trolling or idiots for not getting point 3.

Thank you.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by midnight Target
The only thing racist about that article is assuming the color of their skin has anything to do it.

Originally posted by Curval
Well said!

I slightly disagree.  Race may have been a factor in the choice of example photos to accompany the article.  If the photos do not mirror the actual racial and gender make-up of the cross section of crime victims, racism and indeed sexism may have occured.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Race may have been a factor in the choice of example photos to accompany the article.  If the photos do not mirror the actual racial and gender make-up of the cross section of crime victims, racism and indeed sexism may have occured.

Again, the photos are not random selections. These are the the pictures of the people who were actually shot.

Steve - you leave the keys in your cars? Check your insurance. Over here, if your car is stolen and you left the key inside it, the insurance company has no obligation to make good your loss.

Nashwan said "What I find funny is some Americans claiming Britain's 68 gun murders last year prove gun control doesn't work, but America's 10,000 gun murders a year prove more guns = less crime." Brilliant! And too good to be read only once. Sig. material. I wish I could think up these one liners!

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by beet1e
Again, the photos are not random selections. These are the the pictures of the people who were actually shot.

I understand that... according to the graphic some 246 were killed.  But the only way that the writer of the article could be considered racially and gender bias free is if the ratio of those depicted in the representative photographs precisely reflect the makeup of the larger population of gunshot victims.

[tce2506]

Umm, yeah Spook. Taking away guns from your citizens really helped your crime rate over there didn't it.

[Mini D]

Originally posted by Nashwan
You seem to be the only one who noticed that.

What I find funny is some Americans claiming Britain's 68 gun murders last year prove gun control doesn't work, but America's 10,000 gun murders a year prove more guns = less crime.

Ah... so you have to completely dismiss the article to make a point?

I guess you didn't read the 10,000 (2002) vs 25,000 (2003) numbers in the article?  The article posted shows a rappid increase in gun related crimes despite guns being illegal.  To argue alongside beetle in this one, you have to be completely ignorant of what the article is saying.

But stick to that "68" number... especially since it looks better than that "97" number quoted in the article.

Hey... how many gun-crime related deaths were there anually before you guys banned them?  I seem to remember it was around 100?

Feel free to chose to compare your numbers to those in the U.S.  It's really the only sliver of an argument you have left.  It seems that comparing the pre-ban to post-ban numbers in the UK will no longer work for you.  I just find it funny that you are still blindly flailing away with that one.  And I find it funny that beetle posts an article that makes both of you look like baffoons for resorting to it.  And finally, I find it funny that neither of you seemingly get it.

[lazs2]

vort... there is evidence that there was less crime in england when everyone was armed with swards than when the swords were outlawed.

sc spook... I don't think that what you feel is correct.   In australia it may work for you on a personal level.   you may think that you are elite and that you are safer with an unarmed population.

Here... the facts don't bear out your theory.   citizens with concealled carry permits are not causeing any problems whatsoever.   out of the 10 million or so that have permits not one has been convicted of a wrongful death.   Perhaps australians are a different breed and less responsible than Americans?

I bet I know more about guns... am a better shot than you and am safer with them than you I bet I shoot more rounds a year than you.... and...  I bet that most concealled carry holders are about like me.   An australlian citizen would probly be better off if I had a gun and was helping him than if you did.... I at least give the guy credit for some brains while you look down your nose at him.

lazs

[SC-Sp00k]

You boys have some problems.

And im not talking about the guns.

[lazs2]

scspook.... you are the one who doesn't trust his own countrymen....  I would say it is you that has the problem... don't they give cops psyc tests down there?    

To an American, your elite crap is really really annoying.

beet... I* believe the incident with you in the car and the thugs was partially your fault.  YU did not take my advise.   I will bet that you were not wearing gloves were you?   the thugs got one look at your royal, effeminate hands and instantly pegged you for the upper class scum that you are and their reaction was.... predictable.... Now wear them gloves when you are out!

lazs

[Maverick]

Just a couple points I'd like to make here.

1. Anyone who thinks that mere elimination of firearms will make crime go away is the one living in a fools paradise. Criminals prey (use of term is deliberate and accurate) on those who are incapable or unlikely to resist. When the vast majority of victim population is unarmed or unable to resist the risk factor for the criminal goes dramatically down.

2. Spook, non police members are somehow not worthy of having a firearm? What about myself then? I WAS a police officer, so now I cannot be trusted with a weapon since I'm out of that group?? Just what group does your nation draw it's officers from? Doesn't it draw them from the general population?? If so then what makes them suddenly worth of handling a firearm, magic transmutation??? If they were unworthy or unable to handle a weapon before due to being in the general population they they would have the same "qualities" after being in the department. They are still the same people.

What other items would the general population be restricted from having since they are so inept? Who gets to decide and what utopian population did the decision makers decend from to qualifiy them to decide for the general population?

[Nashwan]

I guess you didn't read the 10,000 (2002) vs 25,000 (2003) numbers in the article? The article posted shows a rappid increase in gun related crimes despite guns being illegal.

The only problem is, they've made up the figures.  From the official crime statistics:

"The changes in both homicides and firearm offences were small in 2003/04: there was an increase of less than one per cent in firearm offences, and a fall of around two per cent in homicides (after excluding retrospectively recorded Harold Shipman murders from the 2002/03 total)."

and

"In 2003/04 there were a provisional 10,340 firearm offences in England and Wales. This was an increase of less than one per cent since 2002/03 (Figure 5.6). The number of offences has risen each year since 1997/98, but the  2003/04 rise is the smallest."

The only way to get the figures up to 25,000 is to add the air gun crimes to the firearms crimes. Firearms crimes were just over 10,000, air gun crimes just over 14,000.

What they've done is take the previous year's figures for firearms crimes, and 2003's figures for firearms crimes AND air gun crimes, and lump them together.

But stick to that "68" number... especially since it looks better than that "97" number quoted in the article.

The "97" number is wrong, plain and simple. Again, the official statistics:

2000-01  73
2001-02  97
2002-03  81
2003-04  68

You can get the official crime statistics at:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1004.pdf

Mind you, it still sounds the same even if you use the (false) 97 figure:

"What I find funny is some Americans claiming Britain's 97 gun murders last year prove gun control doesn't work, but America's 10,000 gun murders a year prove more guns = less crime."

Using the real figure, 147 times as many people were murdered with a gun in the US. Using the false figure, it's still 103 times as many.

It seems that comparing the pre-ban to post-ban numbers in the UK will no longer work for you. I just find it funny that you are still blindly flailing away with that one.

I've never supported the virtual ban on handguns in the UK. It was silly, because we already had very good gun controls before that.

My position is that gun control is much better than the virtual free for all in the US. The 68 to 10,000 firearms murder figure would seem to support that.

[AKIron]

It's really ok by me if you folks in UK don't want any guns but you probably shouldn't expect us to watch your borders and prevent smuggling. It's even ok if you think we in the US or the rest of the world should follow suit. You can even expect us to take you   seriously. Give up your guns all you want, no problem, try to take our guns though and there will be trouble.

[airguard]

yes to nai ! away with gone ! and Norway out of the country !
give me a drink i need it after reading this hehe