Author Topic: Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains? (Read 1492 times)

J_A_B · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:19:40 PM »

Had they called the police, the cop probably would have got a laugh out of it before politely telling the railroad to not waste their time. Might have told you to just leave them alone if they're that sensitive, but that's about it.

Railroad photography is a popular and longstanding hobby with a lot of people. There are many books dedicated entirely to the subject. Taking pictures of rusty old SD-45's or such doing yard switching is hardly a national security threat. More like it's a silly excuse to get rid of unwanted people.

AKWEAV--60 years ago, the guys running the train would likely have stopped and waved at the cameraman, or at least thrown some extra coal on the fire to make a nice smoky cloud. This includes the Denver & Rio Grande Southern railroad which transported a fair amount of uranium ore for the bomb poject.

Which railroad was it? Some of them have a better reputation with railfans than others. Some are openly hostile.

As for some of the responses I see in this thread--Paranoia is damaging this country a whole lot more than terrorists ever will.

J_A_B

Thrawn · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:32:39 PM »

MarkVZ, they can tell you do anything they wish. You can tell them to **** off, and the last time you checked you were in the land of the free.

PS: Please don't listen to these communists telling you to give up your freedom for the good of the community.

MarkVZ · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:39:20 PM »

I see both sides of the issue.

However, they accomplished nothing. I got turned away with several pictures of their locomotives, and my name was never given.

I got shortchanged a photo op and had to go find something else to take my mind off of my Aerospace studies for a while. Oh well.

I could have easily gotten pictures of anything there if I was sneaky about it. But that wasn't my goal. It's just a hobby to me.

I'm not arguing the need for homeland security. However, this "guilty until proven innocent" stuff really scares me. I don't enjoy being labelled a terrorist for something so innocent. I've been taking pictures of trains for years. Shouldn't the burden of proof lie on them, and not on me?

Why would they give permission to let people take pictures? How can they be sure they're not giving permission to one of "them?" Think of the backlash that would come if someone found out that they gave a terrorist permission to take pictures of equipment that was later damaged? I think asking for permission was clearly not going to get me anywhere, based on what I was told yesterday. Moot point, really. I never set foot on any peoperty of theirs. Do we need permission to *look* at things?

I was really looking for the legal aspects of what happened to me. I'm just curious as to just how far the HSA reaches. I really wasn't concerned with it before, but this has turned into an interesting little life lesson of the lasting effects of 9/11 and current national policy. I'm glad it happened, though, because I'm learning about something I was once somewhat oblivious to.

Lizking · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:46:09 PM »

Mark, I am a railfan, too. In that situation, let them call the police. They may take your name, and check your ID, but they will not stop you from taking pics.

It is a sign of the times that vigilance is required, but they will let you do what you want, so long as you show them you are legit.

Just remember, they are not trying to limit your freedom, they are just being careful. No civil liberites are being abused.

MarkVZ · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:48:42 PM »

J_A_B,

This was a Kansas City Southern yard in Artesia, MS.

Nothing to the town really except for a few abandonned, dilapidated old storefronts, a church or two, a few dozen modest houses, and the railroad yard.

I believe the units I was taking pictures of were GP-40's. I'm not sure, because I come from Alco territory in northern Michigan. I'd post a few of the pics I got, but I'm at a loss for hosting right now.

Nash · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:51:05 PM »

Are we talkin' about passenger trains or freight trains?

If it was freight, what was the guy worried about? That an order of Huggies wouldn't reach Walmart in time?

Thars no way it'd be a target. One dead, with Huggies and JVC televisions littering the landscape.

That guy seems like an arse to me. All hopped up on goofballs, and buying into the hype with just a bit too much zeal.

Lizking · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:57:11 PM »

Of course he is, Nash, he is a freakin guard for the railroad. His whole sorry life, all he wanted was a badge and a gun, with a T-billy and the right to use it. Instead, he gets the golf cart with a yellow light. How would expect him to act?

Nash · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:59:03 PM »

You nailed it Liz, afaic.

Zactly the way I see it.

J_A_B · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2004, 08:03:02 PM »

"This was a Kansas City Southern yard in Artesia, MS. "

No wonder. They have an almost fetish-like obsession with safety. It's their way of standing out against the (much larger) competition.

I am fortunate to live here in Ohio just an hour's drive from the Ohio Central RR's shops. They LIKE it when people take their pictures.

EDIT:

Being a railroad cop is actually a pretty good job. Safer than city/county law enforcement and they usually make more too. A couple of my cousins got on with UP in this role and they make twice as much as I do. Of course a regular plain-jane security guard (which railroads also employ) is a different matter entirely.

J_A_B

Gunslinger · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2004, 08:18:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nash
Are we talkin' about passenger trains or freight trains?

If it was freight, what was the guy worried about? That an order of Huggies wouldn't reach Walmart in time?

Thars no way it'd be a target. One dead, with Huggies and JVC televisions littering the landscape.

That guy seems like an arse to me. All hopped up on goofballs, and buying into the hype with just a bit too much zeal.

Nash I expect a little bit more out of you......this post was completly narrow minded.

Imagine right in front of the huggies car was a tank transporting chlorine, or hydrazine, or amonia, or hydrochloric acid, or any other type of HAZMAT wich if blown up could contaminate one of many residential areas the trains do go through.

People arent alloud to take pictures of Aircraft on our flight line here with out a pass. What's so hard with calling the railroad up and getting one?

MarkVZ · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2004, 08:20:48 PM »

Thanks, J_A_B, I wasn't aware of their attitude towards railfans.

Yeah, up north I'd never get that sort of rude reception when dealing with the shortlines, even today. I was pretty shocked to have someone suggest that I was up to no good with my picture-taking.

I'm a pilot as well, and the heightened airport security has created some interesting situations. I recall one night, I got pinned down at a grass strip south of Memphis by a T-storm. I called the place I rented the plane from, and told them to not wait up for me, as I was going to be late. Anyways, I get back to the small regional airport at 2 in the morning, secure the airplane, pick up my flight bag and walk off.. However, my car was on the other side of the fence. The FBO was locked down, nobody home. I soon found that I was trapped inside a cage of barbed wire surrounding the airport. I walked up and down the fenceline, hoping to get noticed by a guard or something, but no luck. I ended up having to carefully (as possible) pitch my flight bag over the fence into some tall grass, and scale the barbed-wire fence. I found the whole thing pretty humorous. The fence couldn't keep this lowly Cessna pilot from crossing the boundary, yet they expect it to stop terrorist acts?

Anyways, I guess my dealings with the HSA haven't been so great to this point...

MarkVZ · « **Reply #26 on:** October 23, 2004, 08:26:34 PM »

Gunslinger,
What sort of installation do you work on?

Torque · « **Reply #27 on:** October 23, 2004, 09:11:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nash

If it was freight, what was the guy worried about? That an order of Huggies wouldn't reach Walmart in time?

You'd be surprised at the havoc cause by a few derailed tankers full of chlorine, especially in a densely populated residential area, blowing them up it would be ten fold.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #28 on:** October 23, 2004, 09:47:26 PM »

The comparison wasn't of the place the photos were taken because that to me is irrelevent. What is relevent is the ACT of the photography....while in upon itself is not a crime can be used to commit criminal acts.

What I was saying about the flightline was that it is strictly forboden.....unless you have a pass. They tell you the areas to stay away from and sometimes provide an escort.

Also I keep hearing this word "public road" as public as it may be the dept of transportation owns the roads you were standing on and the rails you were photographing. So yea....if you are on public road and committing possible suspicious acts you can be told to leave. It's that simple.

it's because of acts by people like this security guard that several terrorist plots have allready been foiled.

Thrawn · « **Reply #29 on:** October 23, 2004, 09:50:38 PM »

My appologies Gunslinger, I deleted the post you are replying to because I thought I was being a big dick. Thank you for your response though.

That said, can anyone please show me where it says that is now illegal to photograph planes or trains, or that you need anyones permission to do so, thank you.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html