Perk the LA-7

[humble]

Originally posted by Karnak
I remember the La-7 clip well enough.  You had a massive E advantage, which is not surprising given you were flying an La-7 against a Spitfire.


You also continue to make the annoying assumption that we're looking at a binary choice, either the plane or the pilot.  It is not one or the other, it is both.  The capability of the aircraft acts as a multiplier of the pilot's skill with that aircraft.

This is the problem....

You really dont bother to listen...or look at all. So before I make oyu look like more of an idiot how bout looking at the friggin clips...

[Karnak]

Well, you see, I'm at work.  I can't look at the clips.

However what I do know, and you won't admit, is that, for example, an La-7 at 300mph and a Spitfire at 300mph are not co-E.  The La-7 has more energy in that position.  Further, if the Spitfire does have the E it is far easier for the La-7 to equalize the E than it is for the Spitfire if the reverse is true.

You persist in demanding that the aircraft makes absolutely no difference at all.  None, nada, zilch.

Therefore, by your reconing, a D3A1 should have just as much a chance of killing an La-7 as a Spitfire Mk XIV does and that is plainly an idiotic claim.

It matters not at all if you have done it, or have a film of you doing it.  That is utterly meaningless.  Yet you persist in demanding that it is proof that the aircraft makes absolutley no difference at all.

The sheer idiocy of that argument and standpoint is very difficult to comprehend, let alone have a rational argument about it.  You are doggedly holding to an demostrably untendable argument.


Let me put it thus, if we were to meet and do 10 fights, Spitfire Mk I vs La-7, switching off aircraft, do you think you would win all 10 fights being, theoretically, the better pilot?  You claim that you would.  My claim is that the person piloting the La-7 will win usually.  And you call me an idiot?

Yeesh.

You really need to lose some of your overweening pride, humble.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by humble
So if I give you 5K and you take the tiffie and I grab a lala then the tiffies a better plane if you win??  or are you a better pilot?

The guy gives you a valid set of numbers and you immediately come up with excuses....

So the Tiffie, Nikki and Hurricane are all matches for the Lala...what other planes should we exclude from comparison?

No, the La7 is a superior plane to the Tiffie, as well as the Niki, Hurricane, and every other fighter we've got.  However, the Tiffie is close enough that if you took the La7 and I took a Tiffie with a 5k initial alt advantage, I could probably kill you.  At the very least, you wouldn't kill me, unless I screwed up drastically.  Conversely, if you had a 5k alt advantage on me you shoud be able to win that fight.  If we met Co-E, you should be able to win that fight.

I guess to use the vocabulary of Shaw, the La7 is "double superior" to the LW planes (by a fairly large margin).  It is not "double superior" to the Niki or Hurricane (both are better angles fighters), and it is marginally superior to the Typhoon.  In my opinion, the Typhoon is a better match for the La7 than the 109/190, simply because it can turn with an La7 and the LW stuff can't.  I'm definately no expert on the AH2 Tiffie, but I know in AH1 they turned pretty well, so I'm reluctant to say that the La7 is "double superior" to it.  

The numbers are meaningless to me because I've got no idea what context they are in.  I'm relatively unimpressed with someone who usually fights at a 4 to 1 advantage that can show he is 1006 to 3 against XXX plane.  I guess I'll dust off the joystick and look for you in the MA, unless you are averse to meeting in the DA.  I'll show you what I'm talking about there.

[humble]

1st....

I'm not "adverse" to anything...just give me a holler if you see me up. This isnt a you vs me thing, from your perspective I dont count. All that matters is the plane I'm in.

Now I agree with you to a point on the lala vs luftwabble hardware. However, the G-6 has the handling and acceleration to be a tough fight. The G-2 can angle fight the lala very well and has enough acceleration to make seperation tough. The D-9 owns the lala over 12k or so and the G-10 in good hands is still possibly the toughest nut to crack in ther game. As for the Tiffie, it's a soso match up...it wont turn or climb with the lala and once the lala slows the tiffie down it'll never accelerate with the lala.

I would take any of the hardware above vs a lala (or a tiffie for that matter)

As for the nikki & hurricane now we're back to the original question....yes the lala will control the fight...but to kill the nikki (or hurricane) he either takes B&Z shots or fights an E fight...then he faces both vertical rev to a face shot and the need to manage his overshoots...certainly not an overwhelmong task...but also not automatic vs a good pilot...put drex in an F6 or levi in a spit V or shane in a P47-11 and the lala will have his bellybutton handed to him 80%+ of the time...as for me well...I dont care what your in or how much alt you have....still comes down to the pilot.

[Urchin]

No, I'm trying to illustrate a point.  However, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, since our positions are basically irreconsilable.

[humble]

Originally posted by Urchin
No, I'm trying to illustrate a point.  However, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, since our positions are basically irreconsilable.

I'm not sure that they are...reading thru your comments I can translate it to the following....if I fly the "correct" fight (in my 190) and you (in the la-7) fly the "correct" fight then the LA-7 the "double superior" plane will win everytime....

I agree completely....

However,

I believe that "perfect" fight is an almost impossible thing to find...mistakes (often subtle) are made on both sides. Personally I think 90%+ are decided by the pilots actions or inactions. I actually posted this clip elsewhere...it's literally the last hop I took. The "meat" of it is a fun little tussle with a well flown spitty...like normal at some point in every hop I have a "superior" plane on me....rev at 800...set up my shots...miss em both...he extends I bait him back....as we set up a 109 forces me off "my game" I dont realize hes going engine dead and have to break in to him...bad SA/decision loop and fish hoses me....

Still a fun fight....

Bottom line...I flew my fight got my shots and didnt convert...he was smart enough to extend and lit me up on "round 2" .... #@#%# about the 109...but not a bit about the plane he was in....

http://www.azhacker.com/images/film69.ahf

[Zanth]

It always gets overlooked, as people start forgetting this is a game.  But the quality of a player's flight control equipment computer and internet connection is quite a large factor too, in extreme cases quite possibly more of a factor than anything else.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Karnak
However what I do know, and you won't admit, is that, for example, an La-7 at 300mph and a Spitfire at 300mph are not co-E.  The La-7 has more energy in that position.  

Gotta admit I have trouble with that too............ at that point they are co e.............

We can then discuss what they do next and how one may retain e thru certain manouvers to its benefit...............

The La7 would like to stay above 250 and hold G (on average so to speak) below 3 to maintain its advantage in turn......

The Spit (IX?) may like to pull higher G's (initially) to gain guns and force the La7 to sacrifice e and its advantage at 250 plus.

Once below the 200/250 zone then the Spit has better e retention IMO in high G manouvers than the La7..............


by then the La7 should have used its straight line recovery and bugged out

This all assumes that both sides got their angles equally right which of course is very doubtful and makes it all very theoretical.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by humble

I believe that "perfect" fight is an almost impossible thing to find...mistakes (often subtle) are made on both sides.  [/B]

Gotta agree with this..................


for me its really hard to get angles right.............I have decided that my 3d visualisation of stuff is just not that good.

I watch a film and say to my self....."why did I not take the obvious angle there".............."why am I in lag turn pursuit when the lead turn angle was obvious"

Those are the biggies and then there are the occassions when you can see where the other guy is going, you know he has to do x or y to maintain e or evade guns and I just get the angle (and the speed) plain wrong......too high, too low, too long, too short.

But then this is the skill factor..........the great equaliser.

[Karnak]

Tilt,

The best thing the Lala could do when meeting a Spit at 300mph and co-alt is to climb away.  The Spit IX we have in AH is a farging joke.  The Spit V is better, but still can't come close to climbing with an La-7.

You are right that in the very moment that they are both at 5000ft and 300mph they are co-E, but the moment the La-7 puts the throttle all the way forward that ceases to be true.  And the more time that passes from that moment the greater the E difference in favor of the La-7 is.  Unless, of course, the La-7 pilot is an idiot and tries to kill the Spit in hard, tight horizontal turns.

[pellik]

Originally posted by Urchin
I really do think it is amusing.  Here are my break-downs of what your average pilot thinks about the "plane-pilot" equation, along with my personal perspective on why I think that.    

Newb pilot -  All plane.  Reason being said newb ups, gets his bellybutton handed to em 4 or 5 times, then switches to whatever plane has been handing him his ass, expecting it to make a difference.

Borderline Newb - Has realized that pilot plays some role in the equation, because the same guys always seem to hand him his bellybutton even if they are in the same plane.  So probably 50-50 pilot plane.  

Average pilot - Can kill baby seals in whatever plane he wants to, therefore leading him to think that the pilot is more important than the plane.  Call it 75-25.  

Good pilot - Can usually kill average pilots in whatever plane, usually loses to "great" pilots in whatever plane.  Call it about 90-10.

"Great" pilot - Has found a plane that he is very comfortable flying, can usually kill anyone, unless they run into co-skilled pilot in ... a better plane.  Call it back to about 50-50.  

Honest pilot..  (me) call it 10-90 plane/pilot.  Now matter how "great" you are, you can't make a plane do something it can't do.  

Most of the self-proclaimed "great" pilots fly extraordinarily fast planes (1945, as a general rule), and tend to run at the first sign of trouble.  

Karnak, you've got it right in my opinion.  Anyone who can't see what a complete and total performance advantage the La-7 gives even the most pathetic newb of a seal pup target is blind, or deluded.  

By the way Humble... if I took you up on your offer.. I'd take the La-7 and kill you in anything if I had a 5k alt advantage to start.  

It is the plane, not the pilot.

There's a quote under ACK-ACK's name that seems relevent here. It was something like "Some pilots are good, some pilots are great, but the best of all flew the P-38."

The guys who run never learn to defend themselves, and their aspirations are limited.

-pellik

[Widewing]

My thoughts:

I agree that perking the 3 cannon La-7 is appropriate, something small but effective like the F4U-1C.

It's apparent that the recent addition of the Ki-84 has generally gone unnoticed in its effectiveness at dealing with the La-7.

Against all aircraft:

Ki-84 - 1.34/1
La-7 - 1.29/1

Against each other:

Ki-84 - 1.08/1
La-7 - 0.92/1

That's quite interesting, the mighty La-7 doesn't dominate the Hayate. And, that's in spite of being nearly 50 mph faster on the deck.

We can discount the newbie argument, because there's plenty of newbies flying the Hayate.

It boils down to the Ki-84 having more strengths and less weaknesses than the La-7, especially when you know how to set up the Ki-84 for maximum performance.

Fly with 50% fuel max... Need more range, take drop tanks. Use manual trim. In manual trim the Hayate pilot is not fighting his own elevators at high speeds. At 50% fuel, the Ki-84 has similar range to the La-7 with full bags. Climb rate is virtually the same under these conditions. Roll rate goes to the Hayate, especially at medium to high speeds where it excels. Turning ability is no contest, The La-7 is badly outclassed. Scissoring with the Ki-84 is certain death. Should the La-7 pilot find himself with the Ki-84 above him or Co-E, he can always bunt over and try to dive clear. Well, the Hayate can dive too, and if its under manual trim, it can turn just as well as the Lavochkin at high speeds. Plus, if the La-7 driver isn't careful, he will have serious problems with control stiffening. In all probability, if the La-7 doesn't auger, he will be able to get out of gun range... And he better keep on running too if the Ki-84 doesn't take the bait and remains above him. If the La-7 wishes to reverse and engage, he'll have to climb. Climbing will make him slow and getting slow around the Ki-84 means getting dead.

Rope-a-dope; I've had a few La-7s try this. They died. Trying to rope a Hayate with decent E is not a good idea. If you guys think the Niki is the premier UFO, you haven't seen the Ki-84 fight in the vertical. We have compared the Niki and Hayate head-to-head and the Hayate is superior in every category of performance. Should you think that trying to rope the Hayate is a good idea, consider this: Long after the La-7 has stalled and tumbled out of its climb, the Ki-84 is still climbing with complete control in every flight axis, right down to 50 mph. Indeed, the Ki-84 is the king of the spiral climb. You can take off, and right from the runway, pull into a climbing spiral. Averaging almost 4k per minute, you can spiral up to 12k, and never go outside of the base perimeter!

So, the La-7 has but two advantages over the Hayate. Those are pure speed and level acceleration. It needs those advantages to survive, because it is equalled or inferior in every other measure of performance. The standard La-7 practice of taking the fight into the vertical doesn't work against the Ki-84. Suddenly, the Lavochkin pilot must learn use similar tactics that P-51 pilots must use against the Spit IX; stay fast, don't climb steeply and never turn hard. And those are survival tactics, not fight winning tactics.

In my opinion, the addition of the Ki-84 has significantly changed the dynamics of the MA, and changed it for the better.

My regards,

Widewing

[MANDO]

Originally posted by Widewing
Ki-84 - 1.34/1
La-7 - 1.29/1

La7 K/D ratios are nonsense, those are the most vulched rides.

[tikky]

Conclusion (consice)...

La-7 will not be PERKED unless HTC fills their all mid/early planeset.

If HTC completes their early/mid war planeset, it is possible to perk all late war (fighters/bombers/tanks) rides. This will create a 1942-43 atmosphere and collect enough pts to fly late war planes.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by MANDO
La7 K/D ratios are nonsense, those are the most vulched rides.

Balderdash. The Spitfire is THE most vulched ride by a large margin.

My regards,

Widewing