Author Topic: Proof that B17 couldn't dive bomb (Read 1476 times)

Zanth · « **Reply #30 on:** October 28, 2004, 08:41:39 AM »

anyway... what about lancs?

WarLover · « **Reply #31 on:** October 28, 2004, 02:59:56 PM »

A couple of comments:

1) Could the pilot of a B-17 drop the bombs? Yes, the pilot had an emergency salvo switch to lose the bombs if the bombardier was wounded or killed. He had no sighting device to aim anything.

2) During WWII, they made a distinction between "Dive" bombing and "Glide" bombing. Both involved dives but true dive bombing was done at an angle greater than 60 degrees. Anything below that angle was referred to as glide bombing unless it was "skip" bombing where the bomb was "skipped" off the water or the ground (not modeled in AH but used extensively by B-25s against Jap shipping in the Pacific).

3)The bomb load of a B-17 was rated at 8,000 lbs. Not only could it be carried internally but early models also had one hardpoint under each wing to carry the 4,000 block buster which did not fit in the bomb bay. If fitted with these special external racks, maximum normal short-range bomb load could go as high as 17,600 lbs. Now a full crew is one thing at about 2,000 lbs max but if you add four to eight times that much in bombs, then the fuel and then the ammo for all thirteen guns....well I doubt you'd be doing 90 degree banking turns or pulling out of steep dives in one piece. Also, the ordinance was connected by shackles that were rated for specific weights, I don't know if they could take the apparent weight of a G loaded 1,000 or 2,000 lb bomb at more than a couple of G's.

Just some random thoughts.

Raider179 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 28, 2004, 03:11:40 PM »

ccvi Why dive bomb in a B17 when the Ju88 is designed for it AND carries more ordnance?

ummm when did the ju88 get 6000lbs of ord?

Raider179 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 28, 2004, 03:15:47 PM »

seems simple to me. Put in a dive angle limiter. No Bomb release if above/below such and such angle. This would solve all the problems since low level bombing was not only a tactic employed but there is no reason you shouldnt fly buffs NOE. Or are you guys saying that NOE is fine just not for buffs? cause that would be ridiculous. I think almost everyone is against dive bombing buffs but NOE carpet bombing is not dive bombing. If you can defend your base against some 500ft-1000ft bombers then maybe you dont deserve the base...

4510 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 28, 2004, 04:54:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by WarLover
A couple of comments:

1) Could the pilot of a B-17 drop the bombs? Yes, the pilot had an emergency salvo switch to lose the bombs if the bombardier was wounded or killed. He had no sighting device to aim anything.

In the latter part of the war in the ETO they didn't even have bombsites or bombardiers in all the B17s. They only carried them in several of the lead ships. The following planes dropped when the lead ship dropped. Whether this was done by another member of the crew or if by the pilot I do not know.... but it wasn't by a card carrying bombardier.

4510 · « **Reply #35 on:** October 28, 2004, 04:57:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raider179
seems simple to me. Put in a dive angle limiter. No Bomb release if above/below such and such angle. This would solve all the problems since low level bombing was not only a tactic employed but there is no reason you shouldnt fly buffs NOE. Or are you guys saying that NOE is fine just not for buffs? cause that would be ridiculous. I think almost everyone is against dive bombing buffs but NOE carpet bombing is not dive bombing. If you can defend your base against some 500ft-1000ft bombers then maybe you dont deserve the base... [/QUOTE

Do we have any historical examples of NOE bombing where they dropped while in formation? Ploesti (the most famous of the low level runs) had planes straggling in all over the place. If they want to do the low level stuff with regularity, why not get rid of the formation option. Put the buffs back to single ships. If someone needs a formation require the other planes to be flown in the formation.. not drones.

xHaMmeRx · « **Reply #36 on:** October 28, 2004, 05:00:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raider179
ccvi Why dive bomb in a B17 when the Ju88 is designed for it AND carries more ordnance?

ummm when did the ju88 get 6000lbs of ord?

Ju-88 doesn't carry 6,000 lbs of bombs...it carries 6,600 lbs.

Falstaff · « **Reply #37 on:** October 28, 2004, 05:01:54 PM »

I believe that late in the war the bombing was done by a crew member called (no kidding) the "togglier" (sp?). This crew member was responsible for opening the bomb bay and dropping the bombs when the lead ship dropped. He also manned the nose guns.

Lead ships still had fully rated bombadiers.

4510 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 28, 2004, 05:17:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Falstaff
I believe that late in the war the bombing was done by a crew member called (no kidding) the "togglier" (sp?). This crew member was responsible for opening the bomb bay and dropping the bombs when the lead ship dropped. He also manned the nose guns.

Lead ships still had fully rated bombadiers.

Falstaff,

That sounds about right.... tks... I was just getting ready to dig thru some reading material I had with me on a business trip. One is all about B17s... had an article where several planes were lost because the lead plane didn't follow procedures when dropping bombs. (late war) Something about the bombs dictated that they MUST be dropped individually (not salvoed) as if they got too close to each other in the air they would explode. The lead ship failed to do this and dropped salvo and the resulting explosion downed 3 aircraft and badly damaged several more.

Also an article about to b17s colliding and getting locked together... one on top of the other. Surviving crews of both ships bailed except pilot and co-pilot of the top ship... which were struggling to keep the plane(s) level so everyone could bail. They rode the plane(s) in and actually surived... walked out of the wreckage. Ball turret gunner of the top plane was trapped alive in his turret and was killed on landing.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #39 on:** October 28, 2004, 05:56:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Midnight
Yeah, maybe a B17 without an extra 6000 pounds of bombs and 1000+ pounds of real guns and ammo, and who knows what else that was stripped out of a training B17 (like extra armor plate, etc)

That story may be true, but the B17s we are talking about are equipped for combat, not training.

They didn’t carry bombs or ammo, but they did have guns, turrets and a full crew. The cameras were mounted to the guns and the gun triggers were hooked up to the cameras. I don’t think the planes were stripped. So they were certainly lighter than combat ready, but not super light.

My thoughts on dive bombing in B-17s is that the bombs would hit the forward bulkhead when released, especially the bombs in the front rack. This would probably destroy the arming generator-prop on the bomb and turn the bomb into a dud, not to mention beat up the bulkhead.

I’m sure that B-17s could “dive bomb/glide bomb” somewhat. If they started slow, or in a stall and didn’t spend too much time acquiring their target (while gaining speed). It probably wouldn’t have proved to be safe, reliable, accurate or practical, however.

On one hand, heavies in AH seam to be capable of doing much more than anything I have ever read about. On the other hand, we have little consequence for killing ourselves repeatedly while doing stupid things in AH. We can push the limits much further; in fact that’s what makes it so much fun. In WWII there would have been little value in taking great risks with valuable men and machines.

eskimo

Raider179 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 28, 2004, 06:38:00 PM »

wow I always used ju88s for cvs never noticed that huge bomb load.

As for the bombers one buff stands no chance against fighters. At altitude or NOE. Missions were flown so many different ways in the war lets plz not start the prove they did it. if you want some proof search for low level lancasters. yeah they got seperated and torn apart by fighters but the did reach their target I think 5 of 12 made it home. It just sounds to me like figher pilots want some fresh meat and cant handle a challenge of a set of bombers. I have personally been on both ends of getting all 3 of bombers killed on one pass. Might I suggest cannons? All types of things happen in this game that did/do not happen in RL. How many spit. la7 109 missions were there during ww2? I totally agree no dive bombing buffs but I do not agree with thinking NOE is somehow wrong. Why should I be dumb enough to fly thru your radar giving you my exact position? That to me sounds more suicidal than goin in at low alt.

just me 2 thoughts or maybe its just half of one. lol

anybody got a film/ of unacceptable dives? I would like to see what is considered a dive and how many or just low level "glide" runs

4510 · « **Reply #41 on:** October 28, 2004, 07:30:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raider179
wow I always used ju88s for cvs never noticed that huge bomb load.

As for the bombers one buff stands no chance against fighters. At altitude or NOE. Missions were flown so many different ways in the war lets plz not start the prove they did it. if you want some proof search for low level lancasters.

I am not disputing that they flew low level... but I doubt it was in tight formation. Tight formations at altitude make sense... and I think each side has a fair shot at winning.. (buffs vs fighters)

OTD... the advantage is all to the buff... unless there are a bunch of fighters guys that want to just get a face full of .50 cal while hoping for a buff kill.

As for Cannon... I am reading the Magazine Flight Journal a special issue about the B17. In one of the stories the vet telling his experiences talks about having no fighter cover and the Germans lining up outside the range of the B17s guns and shooting them with their cannons.

That doesn't work in AH... being the B17s guns outrange the cannon.

Finally, I did read a story about a damaged (one engine out) B17 flying on the deck that got bounced by 4 or 5 Me210s. Turns out the command pilot sitting in place of the copilot (this was a lead ship that had been shot out of formation) was a former fighter pilot. He told the gunners to HANG ON... and how to call out the Me210s attacks. He then (with help of the pilot following his directions) proceeded to dogfight the B17. He moved his tail gunner to the nose guns, had the ball come up and help out elsewhere... and for 20 minutes proceeded to "school" the 210s. The gunners claimed at least 2 Me210s shot down. (this was over the Baltic) The guy telling the story (the copilot who had been relegated to tail gunner and then nose) said at one point the command pilot had the plane standing on its wingtip and he saw vortexs in the water's surface. Also said the command pilot didn't seem to care about turning into the bad engine either... just flew the daylights out of the plane. Said the whole fight was 50' and down. Also described them violently skidding the aircraft with rudders to throw off the fighter's aim. Apparently they were never hit. 210s finally just gave up and went home.

The b17s ducked a flight of Fw-190s by flying below treetop level and made it out over the North Sea and back to England.

Good read.... and by the copilot's account they would never have made it back had it been just he and the regular pilot flying.