Author Topic: Get Back To The Previous Way Of Bomb Calibration  (Read 1838 times)

Offline JB73

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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2004, 11:25:07 PM »
i disagree kweassa.

the low level thing only started after the calibration bomb site was implimented, before that 30k buffs was the norm.

remember 20k buff called out, TONS IB to intercept, knowing that buff could wipe you out.

i dont "bomb" because i can not calibrate well, and i think that low or dive stuff is beneath me.

now, i will consider taking buffs after a city. now that is just me, but i think there are others in similar belief.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2004, 11:28:59 PM »
Personally I think the pilot should get his speed and altitude constant, and then move dials or input the data into the bombsight to drop its bombs accurately. The holding the crosshair still on a wave or tree thing is as dumb as holding Y.

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Offline Flayed1

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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2004, 12:37:43 AM »
Waffle I have become good enuf in bombers to where I can shoot the cons down around me lose an engine and still know when and how to drop to hit my target. It just depends on how much time someone is willing to put into learning to lvl bomb.
  And usually unless its a real short run or there are no bases in good locations with ord  I usually fly at 10 to 15K, 5K min.
  I think again that it is more of a time related issue. Most people in the MA just have no patiance. now you just have to get just high enuf above target , lvl to let speed settle and hit Y.
  I don't know how anybody can miss with this system other than when I had 5 cons on my 6 and it was either defend myself or get killed and overflew my target but this seems due to lack of friendly planes at that base and me the only bish there. :lol
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2004, 12:46:38 AM »
Quote
the low level thing only started after the calibration bomb site was implimented, before that 30k buffs was the norm.


 No. Complete wrong analogy.

 The low level buffs were always in the game and they were always a problem. However, the 30k zig-zagging buffs with pin-point accuracy was pshycologically considered a much more larger threat because it was almost impossible to shoot them down as compared to the low alt ones, which were more or less easily dispatched.


Quote
remember 20k buff called out, TONS IB to intercept, knowing that buff could wipe you out.


 What I remember is that there wasn't much of 20k buffs in the old game either. Seeing a high alt bomber was as much rare way back then, as it is now. The new calibration increased the numbers of low alt buffs, but had no effect on the numbers of high alt bombers at all.

 The confusion you, or other people are having, is that the time line where a significant increase of the low-alt buffs in the MA was seen, coincides with the timeline overall MA numbers increased twofold. During the inclusion of the new calibration system the MA numbers have seen a dramatic increase from typical 250-ish to 300, 400, and eventually some 600 people during the highest peak of AH1 subscription.

 The difficulty of calibration has no direct relations with the increase of the low-alt buffs. The low-alt bombers increased because the MA numbers increased, and with those numbers the gameplay of the MA changed drastically.

 Before the critical turning point there was a certain standard between the people. In December 2001, AW closed. Six months later, May of 2002, AH version 1.10 comes out, which the calibration was first introduced.

 AH has absorbed most of the old AW player base, plus many players from the stagnant WB - hence the AH phenomenon known as "the Exodus". Also, new generation of younger gamers first entering the flight sim world also flocked to AH since it was the only option left now. With it the MA gameplay changed forever. This was all in 2002.

 Using bombers and GVs was never a serious part of the game, and it was mostly for kicks when I first entered the game in 1.05. However, the era of the "Exodus" was when the first complaints of how MA has changed began springing up in the forums. Veterans were disillusioned with the new
"dweebiness" and the overly harsh competitiveness between the countries. During the course of two years the veterans started quitting, and more and more complaints of "dweebism" sprang up like cockroaches.

 In this environment the small-scale MA turned into a full-scale gigantic war where efficiency in obliterating your opponent became more important than just having air combat fun. This was when the gigantic jabo raids became firmly established in the game, people started whining about overuse of the "Big Four", and complaints about low-alt bombers popped up.

 Large-scale strat objects have almost no impact in gameplay. The only thing which can be destroyed thay directly effects gameplay are field objects. And the bombers, are wildly inefficient when they try to hit stuff which pops up within 15 minutes. The field conditions change by the minute.

 So, why are they flying bombers low? Why the increase? Because, people who fly deck runs don't see bombers as bombers, but as an overbloated jabo plane. It's basically blimping up the old massive Typhy raids into a much bigger scale - where a single formation of low alt bombers carry more ordnance than 20 Typhoons.

 Basically, the increase of low-alt deck run buffs is an extended, b*stardized version of the old 'suicidal jabo' debate, nothing that directly concerns the difficulty of calibration. Even if the laser-guided bombsight comes back, these people who fly deck runs, will fly it in the same manner.

 The difficulty of calibration may encourage or discourafe SOME of the bomber players, but it will not effect the main course of how bombers are used in the game. The dweebism of kamikaze attacks, the voluntary sacrifice players are willing to do to win a reset, and the absence of strategical targets - these are what drive people to do deck runs. Difficulty of calibration is only one of the factors, and by far not the largest one.


Quote
i dont "bomb" because i can not calibrate well, and i think that low or dive stuff is beneath me.


 You don't bomb, because you don't want to miss some bombs, or spread the bombs out with long delay time. You don't bomb, because your expectations remain on a tactical level while using a buff - you want to pick out individual targets and kill them at a field, which you can't do.

Quote
now, i will consider taking buffs after a city. now that is just me, but i think there are others in similar belief.


 That is how it is supposed to be. You're supposed to go after stuff like cities or factories. They don't change,  bustling with enemy activity, like airfields do.

 However, going after cities or factories are a waste of time.

 If hitting cities and factories did matter, I'm very sure you wouldn't mind slight calibrating errors at all. You woul still be able to land some bombs on the target, and that would effect the outcome of the war.

 And that, proves my point.

Offline JB73

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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2004, 01:00:03 AM »
NO i don't worry about spreading bombs with a long delay, i use a .45 delay when i attempt to bomb, but i miss by over an entire base width. when i tink i am calibrated, i drop, and the bombs are over 1000 yards off minium.





proving your point? no.


when i say "cities" i mean towns for base capture. right now, with even being 8k level bombing to kill a city on a mission i will miss with over 90% of my bombs, thus ruining the mission, and wasting 15+ people's time. it's either that or fly a 110 to attack the city.

we have a 99% better chance of capturing that base if im in a 110 than in a ju88.

with the newest incarnation of bombing, there is a chance i can damage the city somewhat to help the mission, and i look forward to that. a well bombed ju88 is much more destructive than a 110.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Flayed1

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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2004, 01:52:33 AM »
woohh JB you said you were off but I had no Idea it was by that much. If I would have known I would have tried to help. I can't remember the last time I've missed the town at a base with more than 2 or 3 bombs usually out of the B26 load of 8 500 pounders.
  Think of how it would feel if useing the old calibration method you could just about hit all your targets, obviously you know that it is a difficult thing to master and if you got good enuf with that system that you could hit your targets acurately 95% of the time. Then suddenly its changed so you don't have to try to hit your targets any more.
   It would be like say having some sort of gided missile on your fighters and you just had to fire it at the nearest con to get a kill.
  It now feels empty to me when I bomb a base. I don't have to try to hit it I just know that barring any fighter intervention strong enuf to kill me befor I get to target  I will hit it.
  So where does that leave me when anyone in my squad can bomb a target just as well as me and the rest of the guys in my bomber wing. In myop that was the point of having a bomber wing. We could gather togeather the guys that could bomb well and hit stuff that at the moment were to dificult for the Fighter guys to do.
  Again it feels like my speciality/job in the AH2 world has been taken away.
   Maybe I'ts my fault as well as the other buff pilots fault for not trying to train other virtual pilots in the art of bombing.

  Anyway I don't think I can be any more clear on my position as far as this subject go's so
                        to you and all other posters on this subject. The AH Gods will do what they will.
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2004, 01:56:18 AM »
Most if not all people cant bomb properly because they do not keep their speed at a constant. If you calibrate and are still accelerating, decelerating then you will brick. You have to have constant speed. Yes opening doors creates drag and slows the bombers. Therefore open doors prior to bombing. It usually takes a full sector to come up to a steady speed.

check your e6b to see if you are steady. hint hint write down speed and alts of bombers with different bombloads. Then next time you bomb you will know exactly what speed you need to reach before calibration.

The new sight is weak. Its too easy. there was no way anything was that accurate from altitude. I used to enjoy the challenge of a proper calibration.

Oh yeah plz do something about HQ. you can knock it down takes about a zillion pounds of ord but then can be resupplied and back up before you make the turn for home. I think you should make the HQ unresuppyable but cut the time it is down.

Just another worthless opinion from me. lol See ya in the skies

Offline ccvi

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« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2004, 03:07:20 AM »
I'm surprised that the newest bomb sight seems to be easier to use than the previous one.

- you still need constant speed
- you still need constant alt
- you don't have to set target alt, but that's a non-realtime action, so doesn't require too much skill.
- you don't have to hold the crosshair steady. made holding down the calibration button less boring, but probably can't be considered difficult.

So why is bombing easier now? Pople were unable to click on the map? Keeping the crosshair steady was too difficult?

I don't think that this can really explain it. Two other options might explain the overall impression of easier bombing now:
- Calibrating the previous sight had some system dependency issues, zoom-factor of the clip-board, resolution or frame-rate, ... that prevented the sight to work for some. With these requirements removed it works fine now.
- Something else changed. Maybe the requirement for constant speed and alt has also been lowered?


Regarding usefulness of bombers:
- The new towns can be leveled by 4 formations of bombers in one pass, while maybe even 4 110s don't carry enough destructive power to do so (might be possible, but haven't see a town undefended long enough for good statistics)
- The new hangar layout makes it possible again for bombers to disable fighters. The hardened ack makes it more difficult for jabos.
Usefulness seems to have been improved. I am surprised that these options to support the war aren't used more (except by low-level runs with extremely high death-rates).

Offline BlauK

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« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2004, 06:51:29 AM »
So what is the point of pressing "Y" anymore if nothing else is required at the same time?


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Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2004, 07:54:58 AM »
good question...that probably isnt needed either...ill try it out.

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Offline Flayed1

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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2004, 08:11:10 AM »
Pressing Y is now used in place of holding the sight in one spot on the ground to set your air speed for the sight.
and the sight now automatically ajusts  for altitude, If you watch it as it travels over mountains it will move by itsself.
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Offline Overlag

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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2004, 08:37:20 AM »
Quote
Large-scale strat objects have almost no impact in gameplay. The only thing which can be destroyed thay directly effects gameplay are field objects. And the bombers, are wildly inefficient when they try to hit stuff which pops up within 15 minutes. The field conditions change by the minute.



LOL totaly wrong....

rooks went without dar for at least 1hour 30minutes last night (tuesday).

and thats becase we hit strat before hand.
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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2004, 08:57:38 AM »
It was a rhetorical question... "why the press of Y is needed at all" since it requires no skill or accuracy.

It is like if there was a button in fighters which automatically took care of target's distance, closure rate and aspect angle.... one could just put the sight on the target at any situation and score hits. Not much skill required.

Another thing is that it seems like one cannot calibrate into a moving CV anymore since one cannot calibrate manually.

Would it not be possible to have TWO optional calibration systems? Just provide some carrots (accuracy maybe?) for the more demanding system. Or is the possibility to calibrate into a moving target like CV a carrot enough?


ps. Overlag,
Did you hit strat before some hand had time to hit it ...or before you hit the hand? ;)


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Offline Pyro

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« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2004, 09:10:23 AM »
We had a pretty good discussion about the bombsight at the con.  Basically, we feel we made the calibration routine too cumbersome and hard to learn.  Now you probably won't agree if you have mastered it, but we spend a lot of time talking to people who are having trouble and have watched the effect it's had on gameplay so our perspective will probably be a bit different.  As it stood, it was our feeling that most people could not effectively use the bombers as they were intended.  

Our goal was that we didn't want 1 target 1 bomb accuracy and we wanted to require a good steady platform to get an accurate drop.  It wasn't our goal to make it a very difficult thing to learn, but that is what we ended up with.  I think that is really the distinction here, how difficult it is vs how difficult it is to learn.  I don't think that it's really difficult, I just think it's difficult to learn.  The problem in learning is that it requires a lot of setup time and because of the number of different things that could go wrong, it was difficult to figure out what you were doing wrong when your drop was off.  People were willing to give it a few tries, but if they couldn't figure it out, they shelved that aspect of the game.

I think where we are now is close to the happy medium where we still accomplish what we wanted but we're not shutting people off from doing it.  You still have to be careful and you can still mess up your drops, but at least now you will have a good idea of what went wrong.  Before, it could have been anything and you really didn't know which thing it was and that was pretty frustrating.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2004, 09:20:27 AM »
Would have to disagree Pyro.

It is now ridiculously easy to drop eggs on target.
May as well go the whole way and remove the need to press down the 'Y' key.
Rod37th took me up and taught me to bomb in one flight. First drop with him as 'co-pilot' I hit an HQ White Building from 27k.
In fact Rod posted his method on the BB under 'Bombing 101'.

Don't agree it's hard to learn, just hard to get right, after all one slight mistake and you miss. Bit like 'real life' I guess.

But I have been feeling the game is getting more 'unrealistic' as times goes on so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised by an 'easy' bombing mode.

Can we have radar guided 20mms next please ;)
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