Is that terrorist bellybutton Arafat dead?

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

-SW

[bozon]

Originally posted by Naso
I got it, so there's no dinstinction between Israeli of Judaic religion and Muslim or Christian religion.
well, not in ID papers, at least not anymore. The religion was used to be printed inside the ID cards, but a recent law prohibits it. A step in the right direction. Orthodox parties wanted this feature in to keep track of imigrants who are Jews by state laws but not by Jewish laws. It was not directed against the Muslim, although it was used sometimes at security inspections.

In my memory there's something about a try that was done just before or during the english leaving the area, a try of "2 states in one" that failed basicly for the twist toward violence that the Hagana and other pseudo-terroristics organizations put on the process.

Am I wrong?
Not sure what you mean by "2 states in one". There were 2 plans of dividing the country between the jews and the arabs. One also included an international neutral teritory around Jerusalem. The second plan was accepted by the Hagana, not without many internal disputes, but Ben-Gurion finally managed the decision and to enforce it on the other much smaller organizations. The plan was voted "yes" by the UN, the state of Israel was founded and immediatly attacked by the neighbouring countries that did not accept the division. The 1948 borders, set by this war are close to the division plan but actually the Jewish side gained some teritory.


A no-win situation for the Pals, uh?

Pretty much, that's why it's so difficult. Israel cannot accept them without destroying itself. The Jordanian Monarcy has a simillar problem. The territory left for them is too small for a proper state even if they get all 1967 occupied territories which they pretty much will get. Not to mention that they have two disconnected regions - Gaza and the west bank. Anyway you look at it, their state will have to keep very tight relations with the neighbours. Both they and Israel can benifit from this, but the current hostility prevent logical thinking by the people.  We desperatly need a good "cooling" period.
 


Now I am lost, can you expand this one?

The central idea in Zionism is that Jews are a nation. This gives a Jew a secular meaning instead of a religious one and indeed most of the early zionists were not very religious up to completly secular. Their idea was that Jews will never be accepted in europe or anywhere else and must have a coutry of their own in order to be "a nation like all other nations". The obvious choise for them was the ottoman territory of Palestine  - an insignificant backward piece of land plagued with marshes malaria along the coast, but is the original "homeland" of the Jews. But the important thing was a Jewish state - the state, not the land. Several other territories were offerd and considered, like todays Uganda, a region in Argentina and an island in the pacific. Zionism is a secular movement, it given little importance to "holy" places but gives some importance to "Jewish historical" places. This made them extremly unpopular with the religious Jews and the claim that a Jew is nationality made them very unpopular with the western european Jews who were trying to prove and be accepted as loyal citizens of their nations.

Eventually, Hittler pulled a number on both the latter groups and left the Zionists the only large idiology group around.

Bozon

[Naso]

Thank you very much Bozon.

I am really surprised by this infos, I always tought that Zionism was a fundamentalistic religious movement

What I like of this BBS is that, purged the political agendas BS, it's a place where you can learn a lot.

[Shuckins]

With any luck, Arafat's "followers" will devour each other.

[lada]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Lies? you mean assumptions.  Lets see, 12 of the BEST doctors in Europe, none can figure out why he's sick. Yeah, right.  

 

lol 12 best doctors form Europe ?

[lada]

Originally posted by GScholz
Yes the Zionists are "nationalists" in a weird way. They're nationalists who determine nationality by religion, and consider the religion a "race". So a Zionist Israel would by definition be a racist state where religion/ethnicity is the qualifier for citizenship.

I trough, they are Theocrats. Im not sure if nationalists is proper word.

Since Theocratic goverment follow some kind of religion.

What do you think about this term  ?

[bozon]

Originally posted by GScholz
Yes the Zionists are "nationalists" in a weird way. They're nationalists who determine nationality by religion, and consider the religion a "race". So a Zionist Israel would by definition be a racist state where religion/ethnicity is the qualifier for citizenship.

Not quite, and here's the catch. One is considered a Jew not by his actual belief, but by his "official" religion. Most Zionists were secular and did not belive in god. They considered themselves Jews because the carried jewish tradition and culture - not faith. An more than that, they were made Jews by anti-semitic europeans who did not accept them as others even if they did not practice Judaism. If german Jews are not accepted as germans (even if they are not religious), polish jews are not accepted as polish, french Jews are not accepted as french, then what are they? That's what Zionism tried to answer.

The definition of a Jew used in Israel is, as absurd as it may sound, the same definition that the Nazis used - you are a Jew if your grandmother is a Jew. Which is of course a recursive definition...
The post WWII logic in that was that if you were Jewish enough to be sent to deathcamps, you were Jewish enough for Israel. The idea was to create Israel as a safe place for Jews and to seperate them from other nations, thus hopefully ending the old anti-semitism. This is what they meant by "Jewish state", not a religious state, but a safe house for those prosecuted as Jews.

That didn't come out exacly as they hoped and many still claim that putting all the Jews in one place just makes it easier to wipe them out. Also, 60 years past WWII, there is a desperate need of revision to the answer to "who is a Jew (for the state)" and "what is a Jewish state".

Bozon

[Momus--]

Virgil, judging by your post, you learnt everything you know about Palestine from FLAME spin pieces and other such propoganda. If I'm wrong, maybe you could let me know which books you have read on the region and the conflict.

In particular I'd like to know the sources for some of your more outlandish claims, for example, the claim that Palestine was a jewish region "centuries" before WW2, and also;

those who call themsleves "Palestinians" and are occupying the territory known as "Palestine" are in fact refugees from any number of tribes and nations who had generally been sent to settle the territory by the Arab nations.

Thanks in advance.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Momus--
Virgil, judging by your post, you learnt everything you know about Palestine from FLAME spin pieces and other such propoganda. If I'm wrong, maybe you could let me know which books you have read on the region and the conflict.

In particular I'd like to know the sources for some of your more outlandish claims, for example, the claim that Palestine was a jewish region "centuries" before WW2, and also;

 

Thanks in advance.

I didn't know we were on a first name basis.

Judging from your arrogant assumptions, I'm not going to waste my time doing research FOR you, because you probably won't read it anyway. You want to read it, go look for it, because it is out there.

[Habu]

Spoken like a true moron Virgil. If the guy wants to know where to get some facts show him. Defend your arguments with references. If you can't then do some research.

Some people in here know nothing about the topic and are generally trying to see the truth.

[Blue2]

Over here they are reporting he may have been poisoned.

[NUKE]

..... as long as he dies it's all good.

Go to hell terrorist.

[Habu]

I thought he may have been as his illness is so strange. Doctors can pretty much tell what is wrong with a typical 70 year old in a few days after running tests. He has been sick for weeks and they still do not know.

Wonder if it is true and if so who did it?

[Suave]

http://www.conceptwizard.com/nutoo/nutshell3.html

[WMLute]

This is all been hashed out here in the o'club already.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83402&perpage=50&pagenumber=2

Particularly GREAT history post from Arlo on page 2