Is that terrorist bellybutton Arafat dead?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Suave
Nuke's got a point, non isreali palistinians are in fact from, egypt, jordan and syria. The borders of their countries were moved by isreal, and instead of chosing to move with their respective countries borders they chose to stay there in the land that Isreal annexed.  Palistine is just a geographic region, not a nation. The great majority of palistine is on the other side of the river in Jordan, yet we don't see the "palistinians" waging war agains the Jordanian occupation.  Isrealis are palistinians too, be they jews or arabs.

In other words:

And istead of accepting to be ethincally cleansed by the Israelis they foolioshly stayed in their homes.

Oh Nuke definitely has a point....

Also Suave your whole premise is pointless, the big issue is the land Israel annexed in 1967 namely gaza and the west bank which are the areas that should be the new plaestian state.

But I know some dont want this free palestenian state instead favoring a single isreal.

So I have question for you freedom loving people, do all the palestians get the full right to vote in the greater jewish state?

[Suave]

Don't play dumb. The point being that isrealis are palestinians. And palestinian isn't a nationality, or an ethnicity. So the term ethnic cleansing isn't apt. The "palestinians" are making a choice not to be Isrealis, and chosing not to be Jordanian, egyptian or syrian. They want to start a new nation that has never existed before. That is the source of their problems.

[deSelys]

Originally posted by cpxxx
...PS FYI  Gerry Adams was always political. He was never a bomb thrower or a gunman.

So was Hitler during WWII (and don't stretch the point to his fighting in the WWI trenches...)



And....WOW I agree with Grunherz! There should be one separate and fair Palestinian state, with no imposed jewish colonies.

Originally posted by NUKE

The Palestinians are not a race, they are just plane old Arabs. Arabs exist all over the regeon. Arafat is an Egyption......why does he need a homeland? His homeland is Egypt.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. There has never been a country of "Palestine"

This doesn't justifiy kicking people out of their homes/lands to build 'colonies'.

I'm pro Israel. Those people have earned the hardest way the right to have their own land. But this 'lebensraum' tactic of building colonies and putting people in ghettos is plain wrong. Right wing zionists don't have long term memory.

[Suave]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

Also Suave your whole premise is pointless, the big issue is the land Israel annexed in 1967 namely gaza and the west bank which are the areas that should be the new plaestian state.
 

Why "should" it be a new palestinian state? Aren't 5 palestinian countries enough?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Suave
Don't play dumb. The point being that isrealis are palestinians. And palestinian isn't a nationality, or an ethnicity. So the term ethnic cleansing isn't apt. The "palestinians" are making a choice not to be Isrealis, and chosing not to be Jordanian, egyptian or syrian. They want to start a new nation that has never existed before. That is the source of their problems.

Its you who shouldnt play dumb.

Do you realkly think that Israel will give palesteinans a full right to vote, one person one vote, when its clear to everyoner that very soon there will be many more palestians than jews? Israel as a jewish state would be over if the majority of the poulation was muslim and allowed to vote and govern democratically.

Thats why a single state solution is impossible. The jews will not give the main power over their jewish state, thats just the way it is.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Suave
Why "should" it be a new palestinian state? Aren't 5 palestinian countries enough?

I Agree. Make it one Israel, give all the palestenians full citizenship and a full right to vote and soon there will be a sixth muslim arab governed palestinan country - Israel..

[Suave]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its you who shouldnt play dumb.

Do you realkly think that Israel will give palesteinans a full right to vote,

They allready have.

very soon there will be many more palestians than jews?

That doesn't even make sense, if by "jews" you mean isrealis, isrealis ARE palestinian.

[Suave]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I Agree. Make it one Israel, give all the palestenians full citizenship and a full right to vote and soon there will be a sixth muslim arab governed palestinan country - Israel..

Palestinians allready can have full citizenship and the right to vote, be they jewish or arab isrealis. The problem is the Jordanian, egyptian, syrian refugees, chose not to be Isreali .

[GRUNHERZ]

Ahh semantics, the sign of desperation.

In this context the difference between palestinan and jewis is perfectly clear.

In any legitimate, free and democratic single state Israel solution every single palestian muslim arab  in the borders of geater Israel (west bank gaza etc included) will have to have thje right to vote. Due to overwhelming population trends this will invetibaly lead to a majority of palestenian arab muslim voters in the "jewish" state of isreal.  The jews will not let this happend becuase then isreal will no longer be a jewish state. Just for a fun example of the consequences do you really think that a majority musilim arab palestian Isreal would vote top keep the very jewish star of david flag?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Suave
Palestinians allready can have full citizenship and the right to vote, be they jewish or arab isrealis. The problem is the Jordanian, egyptian, syrian refugees, chose not to be Isreali .

Is it naivete? Or stupidity?

Are you seriouisly suggesting that jewish Isreal is eager to have masses of arab muslim paslestinans take over their country by all of them becoming full citizens with full right?

Thats laughable...

[Holden McGroin]

Population statistics of Israel

Ethnic
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Religion
Jewish 80.1%, Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim), Christian 2.1%, other 3.2% (1996 est.)

[Kirin]

... hmm, I am starting to like Grun (again)!

Nice debating!

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Population statistics of Israel

Ethnic
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Religion
Jewish 80.1%, Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim), Christian 2.1%, other 3.2% (1996 est.)

Yep those 14% are the palestinas arab muslims who are citizens of isreal proper. They can vote freely.

If a single state solution were enacted and the west bank and gaza became proper parts of a single Isreali state population forecsats show a muslim majority within a decade or so. If its democratic then it means the end of a majority jewish state, and I have no doubth that the jews do not remotely want to see this happend ever.

Do we have two states, one jewish and one muslim arab or a single state? In the latter case, does isreal become a majority muslim democracy or does it become south africa?

I think two states is the best solution fr everyone. And frankly thats reason enough to have it be that way.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Kirin
... hmm, I am starting to like Grun (again)!

Nice debating!

Thanks, but you shouldnt base you opinion of me or not on whether or not we agree on a politica viewpoint at any given time.  I hold many perhaps contradictorty views and others may offend you.

Personally I dont think I dislike anyone on this board so far. Sure I get pissed at some characters from time to time and we have heated arguments but in the end its a dumb internet chat board.

[Suave]

If by semantics you mean refuting the lie which you are aserting, that is palistine is a nationality or ethnicity. Isreal unlike it's antisemetic neighbors is not an authoritarian theocracy as you would have people believe.

Why do you continue to chose to ignore the stated goal of the PLA, which is echoed by all Isreal's non democratic neighbors, which is the destruction and removal of Isreal and jewish Isrealis. These countries who teach their children in public schools that it is better to kill a jew than a fly. That the destruction of the WTC was perpetrated by Isreal.
 
These are the people you expect the only free country in palestine to embrace? You think these same people will embrace the secular tolerance that exists in Isreal today? That's exactly what they DON'T want. I honestly wonder what your motivation is.
I notice that you use the word Jew and Isreali interchangably. Of course this is semantic desparation speaking. How many palestinians do you know in real life? When's the list time you've been to palestine? You should pay your friends a visit, wear a cross and an american flag Tshirt when you go. Idealism increases proportionally to the distance from the problem.