Author Topic: Red vs Blue  (Read 1478 times)

Offline Nash

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Red vs Blue
« on: November 09, 2004, 08:36:42 PM »
This is prolly my laziest post ever (though one would really need an atomic microscope to spot the difference) but here goes...

One week after the election, trying to digest (then purge) everything I've read about why what happened, happened (values? the no-show youth vote? weak candidate? swifties? Iraq? terrorism? gheys?)... I haven't a clue....

But in my travels, a few things I've spotted along the way paint a sort of picture. Now there may be something to it (though the "it" is less an answer and more of a question in and of itself), or there may not be. That's where I'm hoping you come in.

So, okay...

Here's the gist of it, unsupported by any links, tangible data, or support of any kind. If you're that hungry for it, say so and maybe (not today) I'll try and retrace my steps and locate the places I've come across it. Hopefully it's not so absurd as to really require that, but I'd understand.

When you compare the red states who voted for Bush against the blue states who voted for Kerry, some striking things seem to jump out at you.

I saw a list of the average IQ of different states. It ranged from 110 down to 90ish. Except for Colorado and one other state that I can't remember, the top of those were entirely blue, and the bottom entirely red.

The next is, the so-called donor states as compared to the free-loader states. That is, what states pay in taxes as compared to the states who pay less and benefit from the taxes paid by the other states. Again, except for a few examples it was blue at the top, red at the bottom.

Now we come to the values thing. The blue states were again at the top, having less divorces, and the red were at the bottom.

But maybe the Daily show put it best.

Quote
Stephen Colbert: Two issues, John. Exit polls of Bush voters said the issues most important to them were terrorism and cultural values. Both of which fall under the umbrella of fear.

JS: So, how are both of those issues "fear"?

SC: Well, first look at terrorism. It tends to terrorize people. One of its defining aspects. And Bush's hardline anti-terror rhetoric served voters in the Heartland, which is filled with such obvious Al-Qaeda targets as Nebraska's Carhenge and South Dakota's Corn Palace. In short, so many of the things we Americans hold kitschiest.

JS: Well, what about cultural issues?

SC: Well, that's fear as well. Eleven states approved anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives. Clearly our deep national fear of hot man-on-man monogamy drove turnout among the nation's so-called "value voters". And here's what's interesting: these voters see the connection between terrorism and what I'll call "homo-ism". Think of it, John. Both groups recruit impressionable young men, at camp, in remote mountain regions. Then, they videotape it and release it on the internet. Or so I've been told.

JS: First of all, what a gay staff we have.

SC: Oh yeah!

JS: Second of all, if those are the two major issues concerning voters, and again, why would New York City, which really has the most significant gay population in the country and has already had the most significant terrorist attack in the country, vote overwhelmingly for Kerry?

SC: Well, here's the thing, John. We in New York are too close to the terrorism and the gay people. Only the red states with the advantage of a safe distance can take in the whole picture and clearly see what we should do about those issues. And so, on behalf of everyone living in the blue states, I'd like to thank the red states for saving us from ourselves. John?


I'm absolutely certain that you could take the sort of damning case I've made against the red, turn it around, and make an equally damning case against the blue. It's not really my intention to do a tit for tat. What I'm trying to do is draw a distinction between the two, and I'm more at home with the blue's argument, so that's the one I gave.

On its surface, you could say that 52%-48% appears to be a nation almost evenly split. But if you look at both sides, some clear differences, and commonalities within each side emerge.

Two sides with clear differences vying for power. Not a population split so much as a regional split. It's not 50-50 in California, Texas, New York or Alabama. It is these states versus those states.

If I were a typical Georgian and Kerry had won, it wouldn't be "What's wrong with people?!", and it wouldn't be "Those damned Liberals", it would be "Those damned North Easterners" or "Those damned West Coasters" (battleground states excluded).

The same would be true of the typical New Yorker. I bet they feel that they're being held hostage by the "heartland" states that dictate the government they are under.

It's like... I dunno, a civil war in the germination stage. Right now it's a cultural war/class war/ideological war, and for the time being, purely academic. But the lines that are dividing the two seem clearer now than I can ever remember them being. Ie. southern democrats are a thing of the past.

So...

Does this portend something? Do you think it will settle down and become a less discernable split? Or even more clearly divided? If yet another election falls along these same lines and illuminates the divide even more so, will folks come to recognize that whoever gets into the White house depends on the victor of North vs South, Red vs Blue?

Lastly, and again, I know I raised issues regarding the differences between the two, and they were one sided. It was only done to illustrate the divide or, at the very least, how that divide may be perceived by one half of it. But it is the divide that matters.

What of it?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2004, 08:40:36 PM by Nash »

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2004, 09:05:25 PM »
Let me put it this way.  If it ever get's to about 70/30 for one party, I will start worrying.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2004, 09:12:59 PM »
Just quick and off the top of my head.

The IQ thing means nothing. The best and brightest are going to gravitate to the big cities like NY and LA. And even if the blue states have an overal higher IQ, that doesn't represent the actual IQ's of voters who voted. I'm sure there are more low IQ types in NY and LA than any other place also.

Also, A lot of the Dems voter base are not the higher edjucated types.


I was always stedfast in my view of the outcome.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2004, 09:16:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
The IQ thing means nothing. The best and brightest are going to gravitate to the big cities...


But once there, the so-called "best and brightest" voted for Kerry. It doesn't matter that there may be more low IQ types in these places, that's a population thing. The average is higher, dumb folks included, and they voted for Kerry.

Though really, I don't want this to be a tit for tat. If you do want to engage in it, I'd rather hear the "tat" (for illumination's sake) and not just an attack on the "tit". (did I just say that?)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2004, 09:20:56 PM by Nash »

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2004, 09:17:22 PM »
"The best and brightest are going to gravitate to the big cities like NY and LA. And even if the blue states have an overal higher IQ, that doesn't represent the actual IQ's of voters who voted. "

love that one...lol


But really nash. no different then canada. The whole country gets dictated to by a minorty that lives 1000s of miles and 3 languages away from me. In BC we have no say in the federal goverment.  All they do is take our money and give it to quebecers and laugh at us and call us un patriotic if we complain about it.

At least  in the US they get entertaining propoganda to reasure them they are not getting screwed. Our pollutitions wouldnt waste thier breaths.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2004, 09:18:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
But once there, the so-called "best and brightest" voted for Kerry.

Though really, I don't want this to be a tit for tat. If you do want to engage in it, I'd rather hear the "tat" (for illumination's sake) and not just an attack on the "tit". (did I just say that?)


sorry Nash, but how do you know the higher IQ people in the blue areas voted for Kerry? How do you know it was not all the lower IQ types that voted for him in those areas?

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2004, 09:21:11 PM »
The whole IQ thing was total bogus nonsense.  The guy made the **** up using numbers from 4th grade IQ tests.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2004, 09:25:11 PM »
Nash is playing the angle that Repubicans are stupid and uniformed. He is perplexed that his views are not shared my the majority of Americans and is trying to rationalise it.

I don't mind.

My IQ is 138 so I'm above the average in the US. I was sure all along about the election results just based on Kerry's character.....didn't have to look much further.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2004, 09:27:31 PM »
Nuke, if ya want it, I'm gonna have to look for it. Not tonight though. I did see it in a number of places, and will do my best to get it for you.

But again... On the one hand, I tried to draw a distinction which I hoped would be kind of obvious. The distinction, that is. We know it's there, whatever its make-up.

On the otherhand, I guess it's innevitable that we'd head down the path that tries to prove eachother wrong about the details of something that is far less ambigous. The split. Whatever its reason.

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2004, 09:30:49 PM »
Nash, the split has always been there, and the spread has never been far apart.  You are just talking out of your ass.  There is a reason why debate requires facts, otherwise what's he point?

I could just say that Kerry was a Zombie sent from China, and 51% of the US knew it, the others didn't.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2004, 09:31:32 PM »
I'm not trying to prove you wrong Nash. I was just questioning your reasoning that the blue states had a higher IQ average.

The Blue states may very well have a higher IQ average. I was just wondering how that translates into votes for Kerry in the higher IQ crowd in the blue states.

The Blue states have higher populations and probably have more lower IQ types as well. Did the study you viewed break down votes by IQ or just IQ density in the US?

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2004, 09:31:56 PM »
My home state of Arkansas ranks near the bottom in IQ, a reflection of the large population of poor living in our rural areas.

The state legislature has been solidly under the thumb of the Democratic Party since 1874, with nary a year of Republican control.

Yet, our voters delivered the state for Bush in the last two elections, albeit by slender margins.

Nash, if you want a better breakdown of red v. blue, there is a national map which breaks the election results down by county.  The dominance of the red areas is even more obvious on it.

Can't tell you where to find it.  Does anyone else know the map I'm talking about?

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

Offline Nash

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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2004, 09:33:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
But really nash. no different then canada. The whole country gets dictated to by a minorty that lives 1000s of miles and 3 languages away from me. In BC we have no say in the federal goverment.  All they do is take our money and give it to quebecers and laugh at us and call us un patriotic if we complain about it.


Totally agree. Totally.

We are practically bankrolling the rest of Canada and we might as well be on mars as far as they're concerned.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2004, 09:39:09 PM »
Once drove through BC.  Lovely country, just LOVELY!  What types of immigration laws ya'll got?

Spent the night in a park at Whitehorse.  In June.  Early morning temperature nearly killed us.  Felt like it was 20 degrees F.  Drove through snow the next day.

Sheesh.  Daytime temperatures in Arkansas are in the high 80's, low 90's in June.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2004, 09:42:48 PM »
Fantasic idea nash!

In the 2008 the democrats will have a new campaign slogan!

"Hey you middle americans, you dumb ignorant idiots, vote for us!!!"

:rofl