Author Topic: Axis Flaps  (Read 4843 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2004, 07:42:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

quote:
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Crumpp says:
withdraw it from fighter duties
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is NOT the same as:


quote:
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Ack-Ack says:
from front line service.
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Check your local community college, they probably offer continuing education classes.

Crumpp


The P-38 was initially introduced as a front line fighter and later on removed from that role by the 8th Air Force.  The 8th AF P-38s were then delegated to a secondary role as primarily ground attack and interdiction missions.  So yes, being removed as a front line fighter is the same as being removed from front line service since it was delegated to secondary role other than what its main purpose was for.


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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2004, 07:57:54 PM »
Quote
So yes, being removed as a front line fighter is the same as being removed from front line service since it was delegated to secondary role other than what its main purpose was for.


It is huh?  What color is the sky in your world?


Don't pick up a copy of:

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=0764304046

You will probably have health issues after reading it.  Might even start a fury of letter writing explaining to the pilots and engineers how they are wrong in slighting the P38.

Again more blustery crap.  Got Facts??



1. The claim of "great acceleration" is crap. The scientific facts say with poor power loading and high drag make for poor acceleration.

2. High drag and Poor Power loading make for a horrible zoom climb.

3. High wing loading makes for poor turning ability. The P38 had the highest wing loading of the USAAF fighters and it's power loading is not looking too good for making up for it.

The Science points to the Luftwaffe pilots being correct in their assesment. The P38 did not have the maneuverability needed for a top notch fighter according to the science.

Crumpp

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2004, 08:02:23 PM »
Where do you get the idea that the P-38 had poor power loading?

Guess again.

Look more closely at the chart above. The P-38 has BETTER power loading in that chart. Better than the P-47, better than the P-51, better than the F4U (except the F4U-4), and better than the F6F. That does not even take into account the P-38L engines were rated at 1750HP in WEP (notice you never see published WEP ratings for the P-38L, EXCEPT in Lockheed documents, you ONLY see METO, which by the way is the same rating as WEP for a P-38J).

Drag? Sorry dimwit, but there is not an extreme difference between 0.22 and 0.28. Now, the P-51 DID have a decided advantage, IF that 0.17 is factual.

No, the p-38 was not the slowest accelerating U.S. fighter, not by a long shot. And it enjoyed a climb advantage over the P-51, the P-47, the F4U, and the F6F at most altitudes. With regards to U.S. fighters deployed to Europe, the P-38 was the fastest accelerating fighter from cruise to about 375 MPH.

Only the P-38 and the P-47 could maintain sea level power up to anything near 30K feet. The rest were sucking wind. Even with the supercharger in high gear, the P-51 was still lagging behind in power.

Properly operated, the P-38J and L had a greater combat radius than any other U.S. fighter.

The P-38 did suffer from maneuverability restrictions and dive restrictions above 25K before the installation of the dive flaps.

By the way, if you knew anything at all, you'd know that comparing wingload by area and weight alone is a total joke. That ASSUMES (ASS being the key word in your case) that the wings share the exact same airfoil type and profile, and they most certainly DO NOT. The P-38 had a broad chord high aspect ratio wing. It provides significantly more lift per square inch of area than the wings of other fighters. The airfoil profile selected for the P-38 is the reason it reaches compression at a lower speed than other fighters. Because the air flows faster and provides more lift. Kelly Johnson wanted to use a thinner profile, but the requirements of range, lift, and climb rate (the P-38 was originally designed specifically to intercept bombers) set forth in the USAAF specifications required the high aspect ratio profile that was used.

And the definitive work regarding the P-38 is "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning", by Warren Bodie. Bodie is regarded as one of the top historians in the World War II aviation field, and is a retired Lockheed engineer. It has all the facts YOU will NEVER want to read, backed up by USAAF documments, Allison documents, and Lockheed documents. It has been recognized by Johnson, Levier, Meyer, Mattern, Kelsey, and a laundry list of others, as the most accurate work on the P-38, period.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 08:14:05 PM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2004, 08:09:46 PM »
Well let's check it out Captain!

Looking at the Zeke tactical trials and comparing the P38 against it's USAAF brethern we see:

P51:



P47:



P38 hanging in the back dead last:




Once again.  Facts vs hype.  To coin a phrase, the P38's "outstanding" abilities as a fighter are a MODERN creation.

Crumpp

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2004, 09:57:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Ack-Ack,

I still don't understand why you think getting rid of the autoretracting flaps would help the P-38.

I think that Spitfire drivers in AH would absolutely love it if HTC got rid of the autoretracting flaps as flaps in combat are a feature that can only be used by their oponents and anything that reduces their ability to use their flaps helps the Spitfire.

If HTC removed the autoretracting flaps most people would shortly stop using flaps in combat after having them fail and become damaged.


then there are some of us that have been flying the P-38 for many, many years and know how to use the flaps.  AH has been the only online fight sim I've played that has this gamey feature put in.  All other flight sims you had to know how to use them, not only to deploy them but to retract them as well or risk damage.  So I really don't see that as a valid argument considering the experience of some in here.


ack-ack
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2004, 10:53:39 AM »
Ack-Ack,

What is stopping you from manually raising them now?  I know that when I fly the Ki-84 I raise my flaps manually about half the time.  I also know that without the autoretract feature in AH I would practically never use them because it is too easy to go over 167mph and break them.

In the P-38's case the speed may be higher before failure, but regardless if the failure happens it happens and it does not matter at all whether it is via autoretracting flaps or destroyed flaps.  Both events have the same exact effect on your P-38, except in one case you can't use your flaps again.


If you're combining your request to get rid of the autoretracting flaps with a request for flaps that withstand much higher airspeed you're going to have a very tough sell.  I ran into that in regards to the Mossie landing gear which are listed in the pilot's handbook as having a airspeed limit for deployment of 165mph and yet were used as airbrakes (with occasional resulting jams) by pilots in WWII at speeds well in excess of 300mph.  In AH you hit 166mph and the landing gear are destroyed.
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Offline Kaz

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« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2004, 11:36:39 AM »
With regards to the autoretracting flaps I believe this may have been brought up before:

How about an option like Combat Trim or Stall Limiter where people can choose what they want, autoretract or non autoretracting flaps?

The problem I see with this is as Karnak mentioned, the safety zone for the flaps. How much above the stated limits can they remain undamaged and will this be enough time in most situations to manually retract the flaps before they are jammed or break off?
I'm guessing that the safety margin would vary from plane to plane (I could be wrong). Which may more than likely produce more whining about favoritism for certain planes.

I guess the diehard pilots won't have much of a problem and they'd probably be the majority using this if it's ever implemented.

Just trying to look at it from both sides.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2004, 11:49:04 AM »
Karnak,

None of the P-38 pilots want anything other than autoretract removed, and replaced with some sort of reaonable damage model. We do not want the speed raised or anything of the sort. The speeds at which they are deployable is fine, and after that threshold is crossed, some sort of damage model that deals with the possibility/probability of damage to the flaps that would be caused by having them deployed at too high a speed would be fine with ALL of us. None of us wants some sort of gamey crutch. We've NEVER asked for that. We simply want the autoretract feature removed, as it was not on the real plane. This is a realism request and nothing more.

Regarding the damage, it would not render the flaps useless, but rather it would either jam them in the deployed position, or tear them off,  or something in between. The penalty for having your flaps deployed at too high a speed would likely be more severe (damage and the attending drag and handling issues) than having them rendered unuseable, and also more severe than the stall that often results from an unexpected autoretract.

And yes, we would be fine with an option much like the Stall Limiter that allowed the individual pilot to select autoretract on/off as part of the flight preferences. This would be fair to both the experienced pilot and the new pilot.

Oh, and I think that deal with the Mossie gear is wrong. The gear should not automaticly be destroyed at 1 MPH over the stated limit, that's pretty dumb. For it to jamb in the down position is plenty of penalty, I'd think it would likely take a lot more than 1 MPH to destroy the gear, probably more like 100 MPH. That is exactly the type of sillyness most would like to see removed.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 11:52:57 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2004, 12:34:03 PM »
Virgil,

That may be true for you, but I do not believe it to be so for many P-38 fans.  The general context of the request is that autoretracting flaps cripple their fighter and they think the P-38 would be more usable without them.

There are only two ways I can see this being believed, A) they expect the speed at which they are destroyued to be raised (and I seem to recall Ack-Ack saying as much to be in an earlier thread) or B) are thinking in real world terms, not computer programing terms and expect that getting rid of the autoretracting flaps would help hold their P-38's speed down.

All that would change, and HiTech said this directly, is that instead of retracting the flaps would be destroyed.  They would not stay on at higher speeds and they would not hold the P-38s speed down any more than the current flaps do.


I do agree that I'd like to see some limits raised.  I remember in Silent Service II that the subs could exceed their maximum listed allowed depth by 10% to 50% (randomly determined) as a fudge representation of engineering claims being conservative.  The safety limits listed in pilot's manuals are not hard limits, but limits that leave plenty of room for error.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 12:42:03 PM by Karnak »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2004, 01:11:03 PM »
Karnak,
For Ack Ack, Mrdr, myself, and any number of other diehard P-38 pile-its, that is EXACTLY what we want. There may be some out there looking for some sort of gamey Bravo Sierra, but not those listed above, and not anyone that any of us fly with or talk to. And having it selectable is a good compromise as well.

At least we agree on the sillyness of having parts of the plane ripped off or destroyed when exceeding the listed limits in the manual by one mile an hour.

If HiTech thinks they should just fly off instead of retracting as soon as you exceed the manual specs by a mile an hour, then he's just as wrong about that as he is autoretract.

The problem with autoretract that we are annoyed with is that the instant you get to that speed, for even 0.1 seconds, the flaps instantly retract, even if you don't stay at or above that speed for more than a second. The idea is LUDICROUS. You can hit that speed for just a split second during an maneuver, and immediately drop well below it, if you are pulling very hard. But the flaps will retract just at that instant. It just doesn't make sense. And we all know there was a cushion of as much as 20 MPH or more before damage would result, not 1 MPH. But with autoretract, you can't take your chances and ride that cushion. Because there is no cushion.
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2004, 02:09:49 PM »
Quote
The idea is LUDICROUS. You can hit that speed for just a split second during an maneuver, and immediately drop well below it, if you are pulling very hard. But the flaps will retract just at that instant. It just doesn't make sense. And we all know there was a cushion of as much as 20 MPH or more before damage would result, not 1 MPH. But with autoretract, you can't take your chances and ride that cushion. Because there is no cushion.


 The idea is VALID.

 Think of the main contendor of AH - the IL2 series, which has a seriously warped represantation of air combat which in every turn at every speed starts with a mandatory deployment of flaps. Deploying flaps is a way of life for IL2 planes. Every combat is associated with flap.

 The P-38, as you claim, might be a different case, but for the majority of the fighter crafts of WW2 flap deployment was never a combat practice in the first place. It was more of a one-trick pony, a risky maneuver which only in desparate circumstances would serve its purpose.

 The only thing that's keeping that reality alive in AH is that there are set limits to the flaps, which is enforced harshly.

 The only thing which makes the combat flaps on P-38s, P-47s and P-51s special in AH, is that none of the other planes can use flaps at those speeds, due to the strict enforcement of flap speed limits. The P-38s, P-47s and P-51s are not exempt from this rule - but they have different limitations and margins of flap use speeds, which are accurately represented and kept to the coin, by this rule.

 Take out the auto-retraction and it's not gonna make any kind of differance at all. As much as the P-38s can hold on to the flaps a little longer, the other planes will also be able to hang on to their flaps a little longer, or deploy them a little earlier.

 Removal of auto retraction just isn't gonna give what you want. The only thing which can give an actual tactical performance boost is by raising only the P-38's flap limitations, like Tac suggested before - now that is ludicrous, if any.

 However, I do not object to the random failure idea at all. It's the compromise point we've reached when this very specific discussion was going on.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2004, 02:30:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Ack-Ack,

What is stopping you from manually raising them now?  I know that when I fly the Ki-84 I raise my flaps manually about half the time.  I also know that without the autoretract feature in AH I would practically never use them because it is too easy to go over 167mph and break them.

 



Nothing, and I do.  But the problem is that the P-38 will enter into a what is a fatal spin the majority of the time if you're maneuvering hard when the flaps auto-retract.  The flaps auto-retract as soon as you get 1 mph over the rated speed for that setting.  In AH, where the P-38 is dependent on the flaps for maneuverability, this is a hinderance nor is it realistic.  If the P-38 had flaps deployed at 250mph, they will not break once you hit 251mph.   It's a gamey feature and should be removed.

With all the cries of players wanting realism in this game, I'm really surprised on how many demand this gamey, hand-coddling feature remain in the game.


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2004, 02:38:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak


There are only two ways I can see this being believed, A) they expect the speed at which they are destroyued to be raised (and I seem to recall Ack-Ack saying as much to be in an earlier thread) or B) are thinking in real world terms, not computer programing terms and expect that getting rid of the autoretracting flaps would help hold their P-38's speed down.




I have never once stated that nor asked for that.  I have only asked that this feature be removed for a more realistic approach, like the ones that were used in AW and WB.

And P-38 driver that uses flaps to keep his speed down is not a very good one.  I find the throttle is better suited for that.


ack-ack
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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2004, 03:09:58 PM »
Take out the auto-retraction and it's not gonna make any kind of differance at all. As much as the P-38s can hold on to the flaps a little longer, the other planes will also be able to hang on to their flaps a little longer, or deploy them a little earlier.

Yes all things even ... it would be dependant upon the pilot then ... wouldn't it .. and isn't that where it should lie ?

If I have flaps out ... pulling hard to get inside you and you don't have flaps out, then shame on you ... your gonna die.

But ...

If I have flaps out ... pulling hard to get inside you and you don't have flaps out, 2 seconds away from a guns solution, and I hit the magical 251 mph for a fraction of a second, and then I am thrown into a violent snap due to auto-retraction and auger ... that's not right.

Still in the same scenario ...

If at 251 mph my flaps are jammed (not auto-retracted), chances are I will still have the opportunity to get inside you ... kill you ... then I will have to deal with jammed flaps while trying to fight my way out to RTB. This seems to be a fairer and more realistic scenario.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2004, 04:51:28 PM »
Karnak, removing autoretract WILL make a difference. It will stop artificially enforced retraction of the flaps from causing a stall or a spin. Damaging the flaps won't cause either.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe