Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[Crumpp]

Crummp, Fw190A9 does 380mph on the deck??

It does about 610kph on the deck with MW 50.

Crumpp

[Angus]

Hullo
Did Izzy get banned or did he just vanish?
Anyway, tomorrow, I'll take the time to type some text in relation to the head topic, - Spit-Messer.
It's from German pilots who were aces, one of them in high command.
So drool

It even includes a cockpit comparison between a Spitty and a 109, the German pilots view. Quite interesting, muhahahaha.

[MiloMorai]

LW ace Bob, who participated in BoB, like the Spitfire cockpit over that of the 109. He like the roominess and the overall view from the cockpit.

[Kurfürst]

Certainly not Stiegler.


Interesting comments from a known guy, to which, I must admit, give greater credit than Angie`s always referred but never posted qoutes from "LW ace", "German general" and so on...

Anyway, here`s the stuff.. ahh, the first one is for you Angie. Did you find any backup for your old claim on "those shut-wired slats on 109s as I heard from LW aces" :


Did pilots like the slats on the wings or the 109?

Yes, pilots did like them, since it allowed them better positions in a dogfight, along with using the flaps. These slats would also deploy slightly when the a/c was reaching stall at higher altitudes showing the pilot how close they were to stalling....this was also useful when you were drunk!


And this is on the cocpit :


How did the cockpit feel in the 109?

The cockpit was small, but one got used to it after a while. In the end it felt comfortable since you felt like part of the plane. The spitfire's cockpit did not feel that much roomier to him either. The 262 cockpit however was larger in comparison. It also had a long flight stick, giving the pilot lots of leverage in flight.

Just a personal comment, I have seen Mark Hanna (RIP) posing the Spit`s cocpit. He filled it out completely. How 'big' he was, ca. 60kg, 160cm...?

And some other :


Franz Stigler liked the 109G as well and also enjoyed flying the K-4. The K-4, he said was very much like the G yet could leave all other fighters behind in climb. In control feel he said the K felt identical to the G. He described on many occasions where they would just bank away from the fighters and climb away from them (my guess this is probably after attacking them?). He also flew a Spitfire once, saying that he liked the aircraft.



Oberleutnant Schmiller-Haldy also commented that the vision was better from the 109`s cocpit than from the Spitfire, as the Spit`s cocpit was much further back. But that was already proven with drawings.


So carry on angine, you have a lot of homework to do,  ofr example, start with backip up your previous claims.

[MiloMorai]

Barbi, do a dictionary check for the word 'overall'. To help you along > multi directional.

quote: He described on many occasions where they would just bank away from the fighters and climb away from them (my guess this is probably after attacking them?).

Or trying to stay away from the Allied fighters for tactical reasons.

[Angus]

Well,Izzie, now you've stepped into it.
I have exactly something on the cockpits for you, Spit vs Messer. From a messer Ace who was testing various allied aircraft.
Actually he preferredf all their cockpits to the 109
Enjoy,- oh, it's in German:
Of the Spitfire cockpit, from Gunther Ralls MEIN FLUGBUCH p214.

"...und vieder sind es das geraumige cockpit und ergonomisch hervorragende Sitzposition, die mir die frage aufdrangen, womit man uns eigentlich jahrelang abgespeist hat"

Hehe, you should be drooling over what he said about the P51. I remember Izzy claiming that the P51 cockpit was neither bigger nor had better view than the 109 cockpit, the Spitfire having smaller cockpit of course. Yet the 109 has a narrower fuselage, so the magic is achived, the cockpit is smaller on the outside but bigger on the inside eh

So P51 cockpit. Same page:

"Die sicht rundum is hervorragend, und im vergleich zur kabine der Messerchmitt hat mann hier das gefuhl in einem salon zu sitzen"

So take that

Regards

Angus

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus

Hehe, you should be drooling over what he said about the P51. I remember Izzy claiming that the P51 cockpit was neither bigger nor had better view than the 109 cockpit, the Spitfire having smaller cockpit of course. Yet the 109 has a narrower fuselage, so the magic is achived, the cockpit is smaller on the outside but bigger on the inside eh

Angie, we all know that when you drink, you make up things.
Like that I claimed the Spit having a smaller cocpit. Where did I say it?  Angie always 'remembers' things, Angie always remembers unnamed luftwaffe pilots describing the Battle of Britain as a 'frigging nightmare', and Angie never able to name those pilots. Nope, Angie just makes up things, lies. Angie remembers, Angie uses the names of veterans to support his own agenda. That`s the Angus-way.

Rall says he liked the comfortable seat. Hmm. Maybe because the seat in Spit was like a straight-back chair, comfortable, but very bad to resist G-loads? Messerschmitt employed an inclined seat to allow the pilot to resist more Gs. And the British attempted to copy 109`s seating position after they evaluated the aircraft...


Stigler says on the other hand the Spit`s cocpit wasn`t any roomier, so get over it Angie, and try to face the facts instead of making them up. Now Angie also claimed other BS about the Mustang having bigger range on similiar fuel load. Now, where`s the proof angie, nowhere...

Why am I not surprised Angie? It standard issue of things for you to come here, claim BS, tell everyone you will come back with proof... and that`s the last time we hear about you.

So Angie, how about starting to providing proof of all the BS you claimed here? It would be HIGH time for that. And since you claimed new things, try to prove the narrower fuselage thing you just made up.

We are looking forward to that, Angie.

[Angus]

Stepped on a nerve there did I?
Ok, I claim this:
1. The Spitfire had a roomier cockpit than the 109.
2. The P51 has a much roomier cockpit than a 109.
3. The Spitfire has similar range with the same fuel load as a similarly powered 109.
4. P51 should have a longer range on the same fuel load as a similarly powered Spitfire.
4. Whatever Stiegler sais, I belive Rall to be the expert there.
After all he flew all available 109's for a very long time, got his 275 kills in it, then flew the P51, P47, P38 and Spitfire in test-combats against 109 pilots.
But you call Stiegler in as the FACT and ask me to get over it.
Rall also menions the cockpit ERGONOMICS if you can read.
He also mentions the 109 seat in a frustrated tone, using the word "abspeisen". That's sort of like putting up with something...err...NOT best

Maybe some of you german speakers would like to translate this

Never heard of the British trying to copy the 109 Uberseat, obviously they didn't. Since practically all allied cockpits were roomier than the 109 one, that should however not have been a problem.
I belive they stepped the rudder though, but got to look into my cockpit pics to see it better. They were also testing pressure suits BTW.
Then to the fuselage. The DB has a slightly smaller front than the Merlin, in both cases the fuselage depending on the engine size to hide behind it. Oh, dear, I have that from you actually.
But I'll buy it anyway.
So, please behave and take your pills Izzy, I'l prefer my beer to them any day:D

[Naudet]

Originally posted by Crumpp
It does about 610kph on the deck with MW 50.

Crumpp

WOW that is not far behind the 2100PS D9 with 612km/h.

I guess the bird than also climbs like 19-20m/s?

[Angus]

A wee more BoB input.
Crumpp, I misspelled the date where I was looking for LW losses. It should have been the 24th of JULY 1940.
What's your source anyway? If it's a book with it all, is it available ??

[Angus]

Just talked to Gunther Rall.
I asked him about the 109 slats.
He solved the myth about them in 1 sentence.
(The myth of them throwing you about too much, or the myth of some pilots not liking them)
Seems I was before both wrong and right.
Will post the exact text very soon.
Please punt or give a reply, if not in some 2 hrs I'll put it up in a seperate thread.

[Crumpp]

Still gathering data for the 24 July 40.  There was action over the convoys but nothing spectacular.  Unless of course you happen to be one of the two 109's I have found that were shot down that day or the two Spitfires.

Have not forgotten your request!

Crumpp

[Angus]

OK, back.
24th of July 1940.
JG52 loses as far as I can see 4 109's, at least 3.
I think I have the names.
JG 52 III is sent off front line service after 6 days in the heat, due to tremendous losses and low morale.

Ok, the slats and a wee .
Qestion: What was your favourite model of the 109?
Rall: It was the 109F. After that they got overloaded.

Question: I have seen on TV that you did not like the slats. Can you tell me why?
Rall: In combat, in a ROUGH turn, the outboard slat would deploy and that would snap the aircraft.

Question: I have heard that some pilots their slats fixed as shut. Do you know of this?
Rall: No, never heard that.


So, that's some wee input.
Compile at will!

[Tony Williams]

A couple of comments:

I have a BoB video with some modern footage showing a pilot trying out the cockpits of a 109 and a Spitfire which were parked next to each other. The immediate response was how cramped the 109's cockpit was compared with the Spit. You could SEE the difference; he practically had to be shoehorned into the 109, and commented on how poor visibility was and how difficult it was to get proper leverage on the stick.

One of Eric Brown's gripes about the 109 was the operation of the slats, which opened unevenly and unpredictably in manoeuvres, 'giving rise to aileron snatching and completely ruining sighting on any aircraft being attacked.'

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Still gathering data for the 24 July 40.  There was action over the convoys but nothing spectacular.  Unless of course you happen to be one of the two 109's I have found that were shot down that day or the two Spitfires.

Have not forgotten your request!

Crumpp

OK here we go.  July 24, 1940 losses

RAF

46 Squadron Hurricane P2685 crashlanded near base with pilot killed. Cause unknown.

54 Squadron
Spitfire I P9389 returned to base damaged after  attacking Do17s over a convoy.  Aircraft repairable, pilot unhurt.

Spitfire I P9549 Returned to base damaged after attacking Do17s etc.  Aircraft repairable

Spitfire I R6812 Engined damaged in combat with 109Es of Stab III/JG26.  Stalled attempting to land at Manston, crashed and burned.  Pilot killed.

Spitfire I R6710 Damaged by a 109 of Stab III/JG26.  Returned to base.  Pilot unhurt.  aircraft repairable.

Spitfire I N3192  Force landed after running out of fuel.  Pilot slightly injured, aircraft a write off.

74 Squadron

Spitfire I L1001 Landed with undercarriage up while practicing landings.  Aircraft damaged but repairable.

145 Squadron

Hurricane I P3516.  Crashed on take off.  Pilot unhurt. Aircraft repairable.

151 Squadron  

Hurricane I P3316  Crashed on take off.  Pilot killed, aircraft a write off.

Luftwaffe next post

Dan/Slack