Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Meyer
That's 6.25 losses/Gruppe for the 109, and 8.5 losses/Gruppe for the 190

 And how many a/c were in combat? Just because it says I./xx does not mean the whole Gruppe participated.

When Crumpp's numbers for JG26 are included, the Fw drops to 6.0. Try again Meyer.

What Gruppes had no losses?


Come back when you understand what is being asked. >> A 'loss to participation' percentage comparison

[Angus]

Hehe, that would make the Spitfire climb the ladder a bit, for although it probably has a negative KD, it flew  quite a lot

[Crumpp]

Hehe, that would make the Spitfire climb the ladder a bit, for although it probably has a negative KD, it flew quite a lot

What I find interesting are the number of long dogfights that end with no casualties or shootdowns.  Seems that when the pilots saw each other it was extremely difficult to gain advantage over one another on even ground.

I will post some interesting comments on Luftwaffe fighter performance differences made by pilots who flew both types tonight and scan the comments from the units transitioning from the Bf-109G14 to the FW-190A8.

Crumpp

[Meyer]

Originally posted by MiloMorai



Come back when you understand what is being asked. >> A 'loss to participation' percentage comparison

Thx for the advice, but maybe you should come back when you have a little sense of humor

[Angus]

From Crumpp
"What I find interesting are the number of long dogfights that end with no casualties or shootdowns. Seems that when the pilots saw each other it was extremely difficult to gain advantage over one another on even ground. "

This is really true! Often, after dozens of aircraft clashing, maybe 2 got shot down and the rest departed.

The BoB may have been an exception to this, after all Göring wanted to get the RAF out of the sky, so the LW boys, by number the finest fighter pilots of the world, would stay for a bit in the mingle, - not just for one merge. So things would get hot and fought out for a good time.
And although the BoB is a small concept in comparison with i.e. the Allied bombing campaign in 1944, and Red Airforce numbers in the same year, the 6-12th month of 1940 marks itself out with the remarkable number of aircraft that the LW lost in that period.

You gave me a teaser there Crumpp, - lots to think about while doing my work, so THX

[MiloMorai]

Better work on improving your humour Meyer.  

[Crumpp]

This is really true! Often, after dozens of aircraft clashing, maybe 2 got shot down and the rest departed.

Many of the fights did go like this for both sides.   Seems even in 1944, many did not as well.  I was refering to the fights were they "mixed it up" for a good bit and either there are no casualties or very few.

Talking with some of the P51 pilots and several Luftwaffe veterans about this subject.  They say it was not uncommon to get into dogfights that lasted up to 20 minutes at a time and went from altitude all the way to the deck.

The impression I get from both sides is pretty much if you blew the initial bounce you were in for a fight.  

Crumpp

[Angus]

From Crumpp:
"The impression I get from both sides is pretty much if you blew the initial bounce you were in for a fight. "

Well, that was a unique quality of say a 190A vs Spit V, - if you blew the bounce you were necessarily NOT up to a fight. You could roll out and dive away.
The 109's would also work that game a lot, although they could not pull away that fast perhaps.
The 109's in the BoB used the bunt to get away, since after a high alt bounce the Spitfires would often stay with them.

So, depends on the plane setup really.

A 190 that jumped a P47/51 and failed, would have been in trouble.

[Crumpp]

A 190 that jumped a P47/51 and failed, would have been in trouble.

Depends Angus.  

Peter Rodeike list's part of the documentation in his Book "Focke-Wulf" Jagdflugzeug FW-190A, FW-190"Dora" and Ta-152H" for the "wild claims" I am about to make.  I would not make them if I could not back it up and prove it.  I have the documentation he references as well as quite a few others including the numbers fielded.  

In July of 1944 the Luftwaffe issued an order not only to raise the manifold pressure of the BMW801D2Q but to phase it out completely.

Existing BMW801D2's in the inventory could be fitted and used on FW-190A8's however the power egg was to be replaced by either:

BMW801TS  (BMW 801S)
BMW-801TH (801D2 with the cylinders, Heads, and supercharger from BMW 801TS)
BMW801TU (BMW801F motor)

The aircraft was to remain designated an FW-190A8 but once the power egg was replaced there was no difference at all between a retrofitted FW-190A8 and an FW-190A9 except in name.

Now the BMW801TU was pretty rare and was the motor fitted to the FW-190A9 and the FW-190A8/R11.  All FW-190A8/R11's were equipped with them and most FW-190A9 and FW-190F9 had the BMW801TS.  Several hundred FW-190A9's were fitted with the BMW-801TU as well as over 700 FW-190F16 that were fielded.  

An FW-190A8 with the BMW801TS (BMW 801S) motor was equal in speed to the P51D at sea level and faster on boost.

So when December of 1944 came around and the Dora was introduced, the Jagdwaffe had good reason to be skeptical of it being better than the FW-190A.  Many of the pilots express this in their initial impressions and were pleasantly surprised when it was a better performer.

Call the Smithsonian and ask what motor is in their FW-190F8 on display.  You will find their FW-190F8 has an BMW-801TS motor. The FW-190F8 is included under the same order as receiving second priority for these motors after the existing FW-190A8 airframes.  In fact a large percentage of the BMW-801's in existence today are BMW-801TS motors.

In November of 1944, Allied pilots were encountering the FW-190A9 or it's equal.

Crumpp

[MANDO]

Crumpp, these engines excell only at medium and low alts, none of them could compete against Ju 213A1, that engine was developing 1600 Hp at 18000 feet without wep.

The 190A mosters would be those equipped with BMW801J (1500 Hp at 38000 feet without wep) and Q (1700Hp at 38000 feet without wep), but none of these engines were serialized. 801D2 gave no more than 650hp that high.

[Crumpp]

Crumpp, these engines excell only at medium and low alts, none of them could compete against Ju 213A1, that engine was developing 1600 Hp at 18000 feet without wep.

Exactly.  Not claiming otherwise.  Nor am I saying the FW-190A outperformed the Dora.  I am saying the FW-190A8 was competative against it's allied contemprary fighters and had some real advantages that made it's pilots loyal to it.  They had confidence in the design.

An FW-190A8 with the BMW801TS (BMW 801S) motor was equal in speed to the P51D at sea level and faster on boost.

Down low, where many dogfights end up at, the FW-190A performed it's best.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

quote:

"Call the Smithsonian and ask what motor is in their FW-190F8 on display. You will find their FW-190F8 has an BMW-801TS motor."

In the book put out by the Smithsonian on the restoration of their F-8, Dale Bucy and Mike Lyons state they could find no manufacturer's data plate for the engine, so the exact subseries and serial number could not be asertained..

[MANDO]

Agree with you, at low alts, 190A9 beats most if not all western allied fighters, and any 109, 109K included. I would say it was very close to our current La7.

[Crumpp]

In the book put out by the Smithsonian on the restoration of their F-8, Dale Bucy and Mike Lyons state they could find no manufacturer's data plate for the engine, so the exact subseries and serial number could not be asertained..

The engine type was discovered during a recent rebuild.  Call Dale and Mike.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Will be hard to talk to Mike Lyons since he passed away in Nov 1984 from cancer.