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Author Topic: Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design  (Read 29984 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #210 on: December 06, 2004, 04:09:04 PM »
Gunther Rall, a memoir”

by Jill Amadio

ISBN: 0971553300

"The American fighter-bombers had the advantage of speed, and the P-38 Lightnings, though lacking the quality of the others were equipped with twin engines that vastly outdistanced our single engine Bf 109s. But the P-51 was truly the star fighter in Europe because of it's long range and maneuverability."

Pg 174


"I could really detect the tactical differences between the German, British and American planes. This gave me the greatest respect for the P-51 Mustang and it's extremely comfortable cockpit, good rear visibility, long-range, maneuverability, and an electrical starting system."

Pg 242


"Unlike earlier versions of the Fw 190, which were powered by BMW air-cooled radial engines, the D-9 version was equipped with a Junkers Jumo 213 liquid-cooled inline engine. It was regarded as among the finest German fighter planes in service at the time."

Pg 244


"The elliptical wings on the Spitfires had fantastic characteristics, great lift. They were very maneuverable. We couldn't catch them in a steep climb"

Pg 53


"I didn't like the slats and our cockpits were very narrow, with restricted rear visibility"

Pg 54


"I was flying at 35,000 feet and was soon able to pinpoint the bombers coming from England by their contrails. As we reached our position we went into battle formation and dropped our external tanks. The FW 190s were at 26,000 feet. It was very unusual for Bf 109s to fly at such a high altitude because they could stall."

Pg 225


"Rall was well aware that a P-47 was much faster in a dive and had much higher structural strength than a Bf 109."

Pg 226
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Offline Crumpp

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #211 on: December 06, 2004, 04:57:30 PM »
Quote
"Unlike earlier versions of the Fw 190, which were powered by BMW air-cooled radial engines, the D-9 version was equipped with a Junkers Jumo 213 liquid-cooled inline engine. It was regarded as among the finest German fighter planes in service at the time."


That is true.  The later versions of the Dora were the fastest at all altitudes.  

Crumpp
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Offline Furball

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #212 on: December 06, 2004, 06:24:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Gunther Rall, a memoir”

by Jill Amadio
 


Rall knows nothing, i eagerly away mr.kurfurst's correction of rall's blatant, uneducated lies.

Got a copy of 109 pilots notes today, that needs correcting too - as it says the cockpit is uncomfortably small.
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I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Crumpp

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #213 on: December 06, 2004, 06:35:47 PM »
Furball,

What in the Hell are your little signature dudes taking?  They're moving a warp speed...

Crumpp
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #214 on: December 07, 2004, 04:40:25 AM »
More stuff from Rall that need's to be corrected.
He stated that in late 1944 the Germans had nothing in quantity that outperformed the allied fighters except the final Dora (D11?) and the 262.
Why did he not name the 109??????????????????????
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #215 on: December 07, 2004, 04:48:31 AM »
Quote
He stated that in late 1944 the Germans had nothing in quantity that outperformed the allied fighters except the final Dora (D11?) and the 262.


Rall flew the Dora 9 which went through several upgrades.  Clarify which version he is refering too.  The late Dora is faster than any allied fighter depending on altitude.

Crumpp
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Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #216 on: December 07, 2004, 05:54:52 AM »
Crumpp, Angus' post went over your head.;)
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Offline Naudet

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #217 on: December 07, 2004, 06:03:27 AM »
A D9 with MW50 injection performs as good up to around 6.6km as a D12/13, only at higher alts the D9 falls behind due to its lower full boost alt.

The D12/13 were the fastest pistoned engined fighters the luftwaffe fielded. They got an improved 3,6m diameter airscrew with even broder blades than the VS111 used on the D9 (according to Rechling flightests, a D9 outfittet with a D12/13 airscrew as around 15km/h faster at all altitudes).
And had JUMO213E/F engines with a full boost altitude of around 10km.
Only drawback of D12/13 compared to D9 is a slight increase in weight (around 120-150kg).

If i remember right, Rall was in hospital till November 1944, after that he was assigned Kommodore of JG300. There he may have gotten his D9.

At this time most D9s had MW50 and those that didnt have MW50 had atleast the "Ladedrucksteigerungsrüstsatz" installed.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2004, 10:49:17 AM by Naudet »
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #218 on: December 07, 2004, 09:25:06 AM »
Looked it up.
He mentioned the 190D11.
Flew it at Bad Wörishof.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #219 on: December 07, 2004, 10:28:08 AM »
Dan, Angus

A couple of websites (if you don't know of them already) you might be interested in.

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/hurricane/index.htm
http://www.spitfirerestoration.com/

Angus, I imagine Dan has it already, would you like the Pilot's Notes on the Spit IIa/b?
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Offline Naudet

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #220 on: December 07, 2004, 10:48:30 AM »
Interesting Info Angus, if Rall only flew the D11, he would have liked the D9 also, it was 100kg lighter and about 10km/h faster on the deck than the D11.
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #221 on: December 07, 2004, 02:58:47 PM »
Well, Crumpp stated he had flown the D9 also.
I haven't read through the whole book, so I didn't see that yet.
It's a big book, and in German so my reading is rather modestly......... slow.
Anyway, next time I speak to him, I'll ask about 190's.
Best regards

Angus
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #222 on: December 10, 2004, 09:05:15 AM »
Something I promised:

Theo Osterkamp in interview with Edward H. Simms.

Die Me 109 was schwerer als die Spitfire und, obwohl unter 6000 meter
richtich gut war und eine bessere dienstgipfelhöhe hatte, konnte sie nicht
mit englische jagdflugzeugen auf einen Kurvenkampf einlassen, weil sie ein
schweren motor hatte und eine neigung zeigte, mit angehobener Nase zu
fliegen. Die Spitfire lag etwas waagrechter in der Luft und konnte enger
kurven. Auf der andere Seite hatten wir mit dem grössten Gewicht einen
Vorteil im Sturzflug - in beiden kriegen.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #223 on: December 15, 2004, 07:42:06 AM »
Oh, by the way.
This thread would be excellent to round up performance specs and links to the performance data of 109 and Spitty.
I am particularly interested in 109 data, since it seems harder to find.
Some long time ago, I put something together  for Izzy.
It is a speed comparison between some of the finer Spitfires, as well as the "sad" JL  vs all the 109 data I have basically.
I can't find the link though, but maybe someone can help out?
Here you go:

Mk VIII with 25 boost available
Mk IXLF JL 165 at +18lbs and
Mk IX HF with 18 boost
vs.
Tsagi`s 109 G-2, shall we:

SL speed :
Mk VIII 582 km/h
109G-2 : 530 km/h
Mk IX LF : 515 km/h
Mk IX HF 524 km/h
at altitude :
Mk VIII 651 km/h at 6160. (at 18 boost)
109 G-2 : 665 km/h at 7000 m.
Mk IX LF : 624 km/h 5900 m.
(the other LF fighter does 661 km at 6405 m)
Mk IX HF 664 km/h at 8113 m, or even 654 at 9150 m. The one with the Merlin 66 does 668 km at 8479 m.

at 9100m :

109G-2 : 650 km/h
Mk IX LF : 611 km/h
Mk IX HF 654 km/h

Getting really high, 11895m, the Spitty still does 593 km/h

Well, hope someone pops in with some more candy

Regards

Angus
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #224 on: December 15, 2004, 08:15:48 AM »
Hm.. So far no one has come up with the evidence if the "Tsagi" values for the Bf 109G-2 are really tested. Apparently one person has the report but he can't read the text...

gripen
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