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Author Topic: Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design  (Read 29981 times)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #225 on: December 15, 2004, 08:56:41 AM »
In that case, I may have no data at all for the 109, just anecdotes and registered comparison tests!
(Well, all I have is from Izzy)

Really, well documented 109 performance documentation needed!
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #226 on: December 15, 2004, 10:13:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Hm.. So far no one has come up with the evidence if the "Tsagi" values for the Bf 109G-2 are really tested. Apparently one person has the report but he can't read the text...

gripen


Appearantly, one has the test report, and says its 17 pages long, VERY detailed and definietely comes from a flight test. Even the serial number (werknummer) of the tested plane is known, and the results are in ood agreement with flight tests of rechlin on the 109G at 1.3ata.

The only person I know who denies those performance specs are from flight trials is gripen. All alone, and has absolutely no evidence to his claims. Plus we all know how much negative bias gripen hawhen it comes to 109s, and how much positive bias when it comes to spits.

The real reason why gripen sunk into surrationial denial is because the results of this and other tests 100% disprove some of his 'foundation stone' statements.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2004, 10:21:11 AM by Kurfürst »
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #227 on: December 15, 2004, 10:36:19 AM »
So stop babbling and post it, or a link    ;)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #228 on: December 15, 2004, 10:43:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Oh, by the way.
This thread would be excellent to round up performance specs and links to the performance data of 109 and Spitty
.Angus



From what I gathered I consider the following the representative data for the 109G and MkIX/VIIIs :

109 F-4 :
537 km/h at 0m, 670 km/h at 6200m. (1.42ata, as beginning of 1942). Rechlin flight tests

109G-1/2/3/4 :
525 km/h at 0m, 649 km/h at 7000m. (1.3ata) in 1942. Rechlin flight test
530/540 km/h at 0m, 666 km/h at 7000m. (1.42ata) in 1943. Tsagi`s flight test. + german datasheet for g-2`s sl speed.

The use of GM-1 gives +120 km/h speed boost at higher altitudes, on subvariants which employed (primarly G-1 and G-3). Results in high altitude speeds in exceess of 700 km/h. GLC datacards and other papers.


Mk IX F. (Merlin 61). BF 274 tests.
498 km/h at 0m, 649 km/h at 8350 m. (+15lbs) in 1943.

Mk IX L.F. (Merliin 66) from 1943. BS 310 tests.

541 km/h at 0m, 650 km/h at 5950m. (+18lbs)

570 km/h at 0m, boost effects up to 4400m, above that the same. (+25lbs, with use of 150 grade fuel from mid-1944 in limited use, from 1945 in general use). JL 165 tests.

Mk IX H.F. from 1943.
525 km/h at 0m, 665km/h at 8100m. (+18lbs, 1943) EN 524 tests with correct carburrator settings.

MK VIIIs are essentially similar to the IXLF, expect they most likely never used 150 grade fuel in combat.


Of couse the bottomline text is, the MkIXs only seen combat in pennypocket numbers until 1944, whereas the 109G was very widespread in use. The real counterpart for it was the MkV in reality.. ie. 600 km/h or less (trop variants) max. speed...

As for how good russian reports were... the 100 page+ report on the Emil they made is far the most through I hacve seen yet. In comparision, british reports make quite serious mistakes, like reporting the G-6 with retractable tailwheel etc...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2004, 10:53:11 AM by Kurfürst »
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #229 on: December 15, 2004, 11:55:14 AM »
Peww.
Finally something to type into excel ;)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #230 on: December 19, 2004, 10:03:20 AM »
Oh, this:
"Of couse the bottomline text is, the MkIXs only seen combat in pennypocket numbers until 1944"

I rather had the impression that the Mk IX production run ended in 1944, and there were already Mk XIV's around there.

And for Penny-pocket, how many IX's were made? 5-6000?

You even had Mk IX's in the med as early as beginning of 1943,and they were already in several squadrons in 1942.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2004, 10:14:16 AM »
Angus, the last IX came of the production line in June 1945. This was from the 17th order.

Don't forget to add the 1053 MkXVIs to the 5663 Mk IXs built
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #232 on: December 19, 2004, 01:27:04 PM »
17 batches!
Wonder how many they'd made in 1943.
Then you had the VIII's, the XII's etc.....
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #233 on: December 19, 2004, 04:29:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
Appearantly, one has the test report, and says its 17 pages long, VERY detailed and definietely comes from a flight test.


So far no one has come up with the evidence that the high altitude values in that report are from the flight tests.

Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
and the results are in ood agreement with flight tests of rechlin on the 109G at 1.3ata.


The problem with that Rechlin paper is that the speeds at high altitude appear to be calculated; claimed FTH is 6,4km while the speed values indicate about 7000m. The russian data has very same problem, in both cases the values are not logical if compared with real tested data for 1,3 ata 2600rpm.

gripen
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Offline Crumpp

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #234 on: December 19, 2004, 05:12:48 PM »
Yeah Gripen.....


The Luftwaffe never made a flight test...


:rolleyes:

Same old BS you shovel.

Crumpp
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #235 on: December 19, 2004, 05:47:49 PM »
Well, if you have documented LW flight tests of 109's, not to mention Spitfires, please upload :)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #236 on: December 19, 2004, 07:12:30 PM »
Quote
Well, if you have documented LW flight tests of 109's, not to mention Spitfires, please upload


How about I email them to you and Izzy.

Crumpp
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #237 on: December 19, 2004, 07:33:03 PM »
Absolutely fine.
I'm actually honest about building an Excel doc database.
I'm not the best at that, but I have some good help, so I belive it will be fine.
If data keeps coming, then in time the document will be very nice.
Once I have some (Christmas is a lazy time, hehe) I'll mail it back to you and Izzy and anyone, or if you have his mail, forward it to him.
If you can compile some of the numbers and additional data (such as boost or modifications), breaking it up a bit will help, makes my work easier.
I think Gripen has my mail, if you do still, ping me one short message and I'll give a quick reply.
(got so much dirt in my mailbox)

So, untill next go.

Angus

P.S. Izzy, those Spitfire IX and same quality were indeed supplied in much more than penny-pocket  numbers......
Nice move though :D
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Dweeb

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #238 on: December 20, 2004, 02:50:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
So far no one has come up with the evidence that the high altitude values in that report are from the flight tests.

gripen

Perhaps you better get that 1/6 scale model down from your bedroom ceiling and blow some of your hot air over it, isn’t that how you prefer to get your data :lol

Badboy
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Offline gripen

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #239 on: December 20, 2004, 03:33:34 AM »
It does not matter which type is discused; the Bf 109G, P-38L, P-47or Fw 190. The problem with all these people making wild performance claims is that they never can't post real evidence.

Angus,
The Bf 109G/AS data you allready have contains real and tested datasets for DB 605A too.

Dweeb/Badboy
Finally you use your own name in your post, thanks. Funny thing is that it was actually you who did not understand what Wood wrote.

gripen
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