Author Topic: Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design  (Read 32968 times)

Offline LRRP22

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #630 on: February 04, 2005, 10:24:43 AM »
Isegrim,

It's funny that you are whining about facts when I have presented a raft of them.  For that matter, virtually every fact that you have presented supports my position.  Where did I claim that each and every Mustang was capable of 400 mph at SL?  What I claimed was that any +25 lbs boost RAF Mustang III (of which there were hundreds) in decent condition could do around 395 mph at SL- fully combat loaded and not 'stripped' in any way.   I have provided primary documentation to support that conclusion.  At one time I was willing to write-off your inability to understand data presented in plain, clear language to a lack of English comprehension, but no more.   You are simply disengenuous and willfully obtuse.

I notice you bolded 379 mph at sea level for a P-51B running 150 octane.  What you forgot to bold is the part about that being the SL speed for 75" Hg boost, not the RAF standard 81" Hg!  That's a 150 HP difference.  More misdirection and misrepresentation from Isegrim, Attorney at Law.

Your comments about the utterly debunked 'Hendon tests' say everything that needs to be said about your ability to argue rationally and objectively.

For other P-51D speeds, why don't you check 'AHT'?  North American's test shows 368 mph at sea level and 67" Hg, while the USAAF test shows 373 mph at SL on the same 67" Hg.  Even if those tests are without wing racks, that still leaves 360 mph and 365 mph for the respective tests.

BTW, Neil Stirling did not provide me with AVIA 8/10618- the Public Records Office of the National Archives did.  

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Besides I find his arrogance quite fitting for his post history, qouting a letter claimed to be from Neil one time, then ignoring that Neil also says he is wrong (ie. max. 370/380mph on the deck for the Mustang).


You can continue to fixate on the fact that, at one point, Neil posted that RAF Mustangs did 380 mph at SL.  Unfortunately, he was wrong.  As I made crystal clear to you, 383 mph represents a machine with a Very Poor surface condition pulled and tested directly from Combat Operations.  As usual, you want to fixate on the fact well-used RAF Mustang in very poor condition could do ONLY 383 mph at SL.

Again, I ask you- would you be so accepting of performance numbers if the tested example was a well-used, combat operational and very worn Bf 109K-4?  If it was, you would be shouting from the mountain tops about how the devinely-inspired design of the 109 allowed it to achieve these amazing performance numbers despite its severly degraded condition.

Again, since you seem to have a comprehension problem: 383 mph +12 mph = 395 mph.





And further, again:

« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 10:35:32 AM by LRRP22 »

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #631 on: February 04, 2005, 10:36:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LRRP22

For other P-51D speeds, why don't you check 'AHT'?  North American's test shows 368 mph at sea level and 67" Hg, while the USAAF test shows 373 mph at SL on the same 67" Hg.  Even if those tests are without wing racks, that still leaves 360 mph and 365 mph for the respective tests.

[/B]

365 mph and 360 mph in USAAF test for P-51D at 67"Hg, taking into account the presence of standard wingracks. If we take what Neil said, 8-12mph for the racks, then it`s 361mph and 356mph.

The fun part of it, the P-51D TK 589 at the same boost of 67" and with the same wingracks, did ALSO 359 mph at SL...

Basically you have just underlined that the TK 589 figures are in pinpoint agreement with USAAF and North American test results... Three Mustang Ds producing exactly the same performance.
So where`s the worn plane Mr.?

The rest of the blahblah and big big words I don`t need to comment.
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Offline LRRP22

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #632 on: February 04, 2005, 10:53:36 AM »
There you go again, Isegrim- willfull and blatant misrepresentation.  Read it again!

The speeds are 368 mph for the NAA test and 373 mph for the USAAF test, and those may well be with wingracks.

So, again, since you seem to have a problem with math- If those numbers are in fact without wing racks, then:

368 mph - 8 mph = 360 mph

373 mph - 8 mph = 365 mph





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365 mph and 360 mph in USAAF test for P-51D at 67"Hg, taking into account the presence of standard wingracks. If we take what Neil said, 8-12mph for the racks, then it`s 361mph and 356mph.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 10:57:22 AM by LRRP22 »

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #633 on: February 04, 2005, 11:02:04 AM »
"365 mph and 360 mph in USAAF test for P-51D at 67"Hg, taking into account the presence of standard wingracks. If we take what Neil said,8-12mph for the racks, then it`s 361mph and 356mph. "

Oh, and I have curve for these figures m8, one of the AHT curves are based on calculations, without wingracks...


Larpy, it just getting more and more emberassing for you. Quit while you still can.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 11:04:31 AM by Kurfürst »
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Offline LRRP22

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #634 on: February 04, 2005, 11:24:31 AM »
8 mph at SL- 12 mph at high altitude.

We'll let others decide who should be embarrassed.

I'm looking forward to your "I have to have the last word" post...

P.S.- weren't we discussing +25 lbs boost speeds, not +18 lbs?  Either way, 360-365 mph at SL for +18 lbs/67" Hg boost, with wing racks, is just what I would expect for a P-51D.   Didn't I say TK589 was 5-10 mph slower right from the beginning?  Hmmm....it appears you're supporting my arguments once again.  That's really got to p$ss you off, doesn't it?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 11:29:47 AM by LRRP22 »

Offline Angus

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« Reply #635 on: February 04, 2005, 11:51:52 AM »
Nothing new here.
Pick a poor Mustang, throw in a sorry old Spit and a derated 190 and compare with the calculated peak performance of the ...KURFURST:D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #636 on: February 04, 2005, 11:59:36 AM »
I feel pity for both of you.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #637 on: February 04, 2005, 01:09:50 PM »
Don't do that Izzy, feel pity for yer-sorry-self.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #638 on: February 04, 2005, 02:22:19 PM »
Why? I don`t make conspiracy theories, Angie... btw, how is your Great Spitfire Projects, the graphs you promised, the Squadron listings... proceeding well into infinity? Broken promises destroy credibility, Angie.
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #639 on: February 04, 2005, 05:30:46 PM »
I need hosting for them, I've done most of the data.
You'll be the sorry arse Izzy when I start pumping it out.
Turned out that your hand picked Spit IX is in it's timeframe a rather poorly performing spit, but what was I to expect anyway.
Actually, excel turned out to be insufficient for the job, but since I've done most of the ground job, I'll use it anyway.
(I can chop any speed or climb data down to 100 feet segments)
The rest will be from freehand and photoshop.
I might be slightly evil and compare a gondie 109G against a doodlebug-version P51 of course....:D
As for the squad listings, the RAF was bigger than I thought, - much more than penny-packets :D
Still heading there.
So, just keep feeling pity....goodnight
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #640 on: February 15, 2005, 01:16:35 PM »
NEWS
The Izzy- picked Mk IX has a funny performance, but the data is allright.
From the looks of it, it was probably a "dirty" aircraft, or with a rather tired engine.
I have a rough chart finally comparing it with other Mk IX's, the other ones on 18 boost while Izzy-ride (JL 165) both on 18 and 25.
I also dumped in a Spit VIII and a 109G-2 1.42 ATA.
I'll be on the ready to drop more charts, but the template will also get better later, this one is just a so-so.
I really need more 109 climb data, be it ROC pro alt or just alt pro time.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #641 on: April 26, 2005, 10:30:24 AM »
News update.
Upcoming graph with Spit IX's and Spit VIII as well as a 109G on 1.42 ata, - speed at altitude.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #642 on: April 26, 2005, 03:51:03 PM »



All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #643 on: April 27, 2005, 03:53:48 AM »
Now THIS is so much kühler !

http://www.showscan.com/film_clips/Aerial%20Dogfight.wmv

Pair of 109s vs. Pair of Spits.

Not sure of the origin, but I think it`s Black Six simulated against two Mk IXs.

PS : Crumpp, you should check that graph, the spit`s curve shape isn`t remotely similiar to the originals... what`s so difficult in those excell tables, I cannot get that..
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #644 on: April 27, 2005, 05:14:21 AM »
Quote
Crumpp, you should check that graph, the spit`s curve shape isn`t remotely similiar to the originals... what`s so difficult in those excell tables, I cannot get that..


I'm hosting the graph for Angus.  I did not create it.

Quote
Not sure of the origin, but I think it`s Black Six simulated against two Mk IXs.


It's CAG from a History Channel show on the BoB.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 05:19:23 AM by Crumpp »