P38 a super plane?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty
To sum up Kweassa (no offense mate, but I think you have rose colored glasses on!)

P-38 only climbs and loops well. Basically people fly it because it loops repeatedly forever, and they use this one manuver every chance they get. It's a 1-trick pony.

I've flown it a few times myself. Shot it down a few times myself as well. A 109F4 can teach it a lesson (and that's not as powerful as a G-series engine, either)

I can take a B-24J up with 25% fuel, bomb a nearby field, and then perform consecutive loops in it until I become bored (I've done as many as 8).

With the exception of the Ki-84, the P-38L owns the vertical. And if you should find yourself in a 1 vs 1 at low speed, damn few fighters can turn with it. If equally skilled pilots in the 109F-4 and P-38L meet, the 109 is in deep bandini.



It helps to know the P-38's secrets. Like the Ki-84, you should never fight with Combat Trim engaged. Careful trimming and selective use of the flaps will reward the P-38 pilot. Knowing where and when to use the flaps is key to getting the best performance out of the P-38.

My regards,

Widewing

[Wotan]

Crumpp, those 50 fighters had to defend 600 bombers extending over a huge area. Usually, they flew by squadron, rarely able to provide mutual support. They were always out-numbered by the defensive fighters. That's fact, not myth.

My regards,

Widewing

Crumpp is correct. And just for the record I never agree with him.

Folks always are making excuses for the 38. There's no need to start a flame war but nevertheless Widewing makes it sound as if 60 p38s faced 200 LW fighters every time they went up..

First the LW would rarely get 200 aircraft in the air, rarely get them one place. But then the target for the LW wasn't p38s it was bombers. Even if the LW put up 200 fighters 2/3rds of were pursuing bombers.

Even in late 44 the LW had success against bombers when the numbers had swung even more extreme in other direction.

Bomber streams stretched in some instances 100s of miles, hitting multiple targets. The LW looked for areas along the stream that were least defended, hit those then ran before the escorts arrived. This is true in 1943 as it was in 1944.

While of course had there been more 38s then would have done 'better' but the p38 isn’t better then a Jug or a p51. Against zekes, ki's and Betties it did great.

Galland likened it to a 110, other experten licked their chops at the sight of p38s.

Heinrich Bartels shot down 14 of them, Kurt Bühligen shot down at least 13 (some claim more then that).

The 38 is a great aircraft but it wasn't a war winner, at least not in the ETO or for that matter in NA.

[killnu]

"p38 cant turn"    ?!     uh, sure....

[Flyboy]

ok lets summerise this in 1 sentence....

the p38 is a nice plane but, not a match for a spitfire

[Crumpp]

Crumpp, how can, from your chart, the USAAF claim German fighters in 1940-41 when the USA was not at war with German then?

Your correct.  The chart is made off of allied claims is what I should have said.  Not actual Luftwaffe losses.

On the eve of D-day Luftwaffe Reich had 645 se fighters on strength of which 330 were servicable and 194 Zerstörers of which 71 were servicable. For Wilde Sau (Day and Night Fighters) it was 142/101.

That looks about correct for the entire Luftwaffe on the Western Front including the Defense of the Reich units. However by D-Day the USAAF was typically launching well over 600 plus escort fighters.  In 1944 according to the USAAF they averaged an 8 to 1 numeric advantage in fighter to fighter ratio.

Crumpp, those 50 fighters had to defend 600 bombers extending over a huge area. Usually, they flew by squadron, rarely able to provide mutual support. They were always out-numbered by the defensive fighters. That's fact, not myth.

Maybe in early 1943.  After that not likely.

So, what USAAF pilots claim about "hardly being able to find a Luftwaffe aircraft" and what Luftwaffe veterans claim about being grossly outnumbered in the air is not true?

That is the first time I have ever heard in 1943 forward that the USAAF was outnumbered by the Luftwaffe.  How many fighters were being made a MONTH in the USA?

Lets look at FW-190 production for the entire war by varient.  Now the FW-190 made up roughly 2/3rds of the single engine dayfighter strength on the western front.

 

The USAAF made more fighter aircraft in few months than Germans did the entire war.

Crumpp

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Wotan
Crumpp is correct. And just for the record I never agree with him.

Folks always are making excuses for the 38. There's no need to start a flame war but nevertheless Widewing makes it sound as if 60 p38s faced 200 LW fighters every time they went up..

First the LW would rarely get 200 aircraft in the air, rarely get them one place. But then the target for the LW wasn't p38s it was bombers. Even if the LW put up 200 fighters 2/3rds of were pursuing bombers.

Even in late 44 the LW had success against bombers when the numbers had swung even more extreme in other direction.

Bomber streams stretched in some instances 100s of miles, hitting multiple targets. The LW looked for areas along the stream that were least defended, hit those then ran before the escorts arrived. This is true in 1943 as it was in 1944.

While of course had there been more 38s then would have done 'better' but the p38 isn’t better then a Jug or a p51. Against zekes, ki's and Betties it did great.

Galland likened it to a 110, other experten licked their chops at the sight of p38s.

Heinrich Bartels shot down 14 of them, Kurt Bühligen shot down at least 13 (some claim more then that).

The 38 is a great aircraft but it wasn't a war winner, at least not in the ETO or for that matter in NA.

Funny, I didn't see a single excuse in my post.

Standard Luftwobble tactics were to attack the escorts and draw them away from the bombers. Almost without exception, the Luftwaffe had the advantage of altitude and could choose when to engage. In other words, the Luftwaffe had every tactical advantage. Meanwhile, USAAF squadrons were up to 30 miles away from each other. Perhaps the Luftwaffe couldn't assemble 200 fighters at one location, but they didn't have to. The P-38s were scattered all over hell and back, usually in 6 groups of 8-10 fighters. These small groups were responsible for protecting up to 150 heavy bombers. Isolating 8 to 10 P-38s is relatively easy under those circumstances. I have several personal friends who flew with the 20th and 55th FGs during this time (one of them, Jack Ilfrey recently died). Everyone one of them reported being attacked by up to 50 fighters on numerous occasions. There simply wasn't enough P-38s available in late 1943. They were joined by one Group of P-51Bs later, but they were still debugging their Mustangs and aborts could reach 50% of the force taking off. American fighter strength really wasn't satisfactory until February of 1944.

As to Galland's comment comparing the P-38 to the Bf 110, he was challenged on this many times by former P-38 drivers. In each case he would back-pedal. Galland was a great fighter pilot, but he was a self-glorifying windbag too (Galland and Tom Lanphier would have been soul mates). I believe that Robert Johnson shot down 14 Fw 190s, 11 109s and two 110s. Not bad considering he only fired his guns 36 times in combat. His kills per sortie compares very well with the best of the Luftwaffe. Johnson licked his chops every time he saw a German fighter, of any type.
An ace is an ace, they think alike and they are completely confident when facing the enemy. Put either pilot into his enemy's fighter and they would have been just as deadly. SImply shooting down a lot of one type prove nothing beyond that pilot's skill at his trade. In the hands of a skilled pilot, the P-38 could hold its own with any conventional fighter of the time.

There's no question that the P-38 was not a war winning design. When it first flew as a prototype, it was the fastest fighter on the planet. However, it was designed with too many compromises that limited its potential. Add to that the expense and difficulty of maintaining the P-38, along with its high initial cost and you can see why the P-38 was eased aside for later single engine fighters. Nonetheless, its basic concept found itself correctly executed in the P-82. There was much merit in the concept, but an interceptor first put on paper in 1938 was not going to meet the needs of long-range escort in 1945. North American and the USAAF saw the value and need of the long-range twin-engine escort fighter and the P-82 fit that need well. Clearly, in the ETO, the P-38's time had passed. Not so in the Pacific where no one was in any hurry to trade their reliable twin-engine P-38s for the new Spam Can. There's nothing more confidence inspiring than a second engine. Especially when flying 5 hour missions over trackless ocean.

My regards,

Widewing

[MiloMorai]

Crumpp, or should I say Huck,;) there was 15 FGs in the 8th AF on D-day.

P-51 > 7
P-47 > 4
P-38 > 4

Only the P-51 and P-38 could make deeper penatrations than the German border.

At the end of '43 the 8th AF had 12 FGs of which 10 were P-47 units. That left only the 2 P-38 FGs to escort the bombers into Germany.

Yes in the last 6 months, German a/c were hard to find.

You still forget the Americans used a relay system of fighter escort for the bombers. (1/3 would be on their way to the bombers, 1/3 would be escorting, 1/3 would be rtb)

[Crumpp]

You still forget the Americans used a relay system of fighter escort for the bombers. (1/3 would be on their way to the bombers, 1/3 would be escorting, 1/3 would be rtb)

Who is Huck??

Yes but by the USAAF own analysis of the Air War in 1944, they averaged an 8 to 1 advantage in fighter to fighter engagements.

That data can be found in the archives at Maxwell AFB Alabama.

Crumpp

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Maybe in early 1943.  After that not likely.

So, what USAAF pilots claim about "hardly being able to find a Luftwaffe aircraft" and what Luftwaffe veterans claim about being grossly outnumbered in the air is not true?

That is the first time I have ever heard in 1943 forward that the USAAF was outnumbered by the Luftwaffe.  How many fighters were being made a MONTH in the USA?

Crumpp

Crumpp, how many American fighters were there in the ETO in mid 1943 that could penetrate the Reich? None.

How many were in active combat units as of January 1, 1944? Less than 130.

The Luftwaffe was NOT outnumbered by American fighters over Germany until April of 1944.

Yeah, there were hundreds of P-47s, by they couldn't get beyond the German border. In February of '44, the 8th AF could put up 5 fighter groups that could penetrate German airspace. That's still less than 200 fighters.

So, are you telling us that the mighty Luftwaffe could not muster 200 fighters fighters in early 1944?

During "Big Week", the 8th AF put up 3,300 bomber sorties, supported by 1,620 fighter sorties (deep escort). In response, the Luftwaffe put up 4,399 fighter sorties.... Hmm, they don't seem outnumbered by American fighters yet, do they?

If the Luftwaffe was dumb enough to challenge Armerican air power before they reach the German border (and apprarently they were that dumb as the P-47s killed 2/3rds of the German fighters shot down during Big Week), well then they were outnumbered big time (typically up to 700 P-47s took the bombers to the German border where the P-38s and P-51Bs took over).

Why is this thread turning into yet another "Der Mighty Luftwaffe was defeated by overwhelming numbers, too much for even der Zupermen to overcome" arguments?

Crumpp, save your rationalizing for someone who gives a damn and stop hijacking every thread with your Lost Cause cult theology.

My regards,

Widewing

[MiloMorai]

Just a guess, since the same chart was posted on the Axis History forum, the same day you posted it here.


The key word is average. What was the ratio in Jan and then in Dec?

Should add that the LW had 168/115 se fighters, 52/37 Zerstörers and 102/56 NFs in Luftflotte 3 at the end of May '44.


edit.

quote: The USAAF made more fighter aircraft in few months than Germans did the entire war.

Germany produced about 50-55,000 109s and 190s. Now American production was good but not that good.

[Meyer]

Originally posted by Widewing

. When it first flew as a prototype, it was the fastest fighter on the planet

Hmm wasn't the He-100 faster?

His kills per sortie compares very well with the best of the Luftwaffe.

He wasn't even close in airkills/sortie to the best of the Lw in that regard.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Meyer
He wasn't even close in air kills/sortie to the best of the Lw in that regard.

Save the generalizations meyer. Lets have some specifics, like the best, Hartmann who had a 'kill' every 4th sortie.

[MANDO]

Still waiting for real data about any P38 roll inertial (not roll rate). IMO, real P38s were far away of P47/P51, and well below western standards.

[Raptor]

what was the p38's kill/death ratio in the pacific? 20 to 1? I dont think there was really a "Best Fighter of the war" Different fighters performed different roles, attacking bomber formations, escorting bomber formations. I would say the P38 is a well balanced fighter in account that it was very capable of bringing down enemy bombers, as well as escorting bombers.

[Crumpp]

Germany produced about 50-55,000 109s and 190s. Now American production was good but not that good.

I just posted the entire production series for the FW-190A (15186 units total).  Do not know about 109's but I find 35000 to 39000 Bf-109s to be a little optimistic.  

http://www.bf109.com/evolution.html

Crumpp, how many American fighters were there in the ETO in mid 1943 that could penetrate the Reich? None

You need to read my post before you attack it.  I clearly state "in 1943 FORWARD. That means AFTER 1943.

 

Yeah, there were hundreds of P-47s, by they couldn't get beyond the German border. In February of '44, the 8th AF could put up 5 fighter groups that could penetrate German airspace. That's still less than 200 fighters.

Yes and before 1944 it was standard Luftwaffe tactics to let the fighter escort leave and then attack the bombers.  The Luftwaffe avoided needless fighter-to-fighter combat on the Western Front.

So, are you telling us that the mighty Luftwaffe could not muster 200 fighters fighters in early 1944?

Again read what I wrote, Widewing.  I said only on a few occasions could they muster the 400 fighters you claimed. 200 fighters was a rough number for the average response for early 1944 with a few notable exceptions.  Those are the facts not a pom-pom cheer for your favorite side.

During "Big Week", the 8th AF put up 3,300 bomber sorties, supported by 1,620 fighter sorties (deep escort). In response, the Luftwaffe put up 4,399 fighter sorties.... Hmm, they don't seem outnumbered by American fighters yet, do they?

Lets compare sorties:

The USAAF (Fighters) is easy to nail down.



Don't have the number of bomber sorties to include in that but anyway the discussion was on fighter combat.

The Luftwaffe stands at 34,000 (total for all types of A/C IIRC) for the year of 1944 according to:

http://www.world-war-2.info/statistics/

Now they are off quite a bit on the USAAF sorties so they may very well be off on the Luftwaffe.  Facts are I highly doubt the Luftwaffe flew more sorties during Operation Argument than the USAAF.

But as you can see here:

http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/OOB/Jan44-1.html

It was not a very large force.  Especially when compared to the Allied Strength.

Why is this thread turning into yet another "Der Mighty Luftwaffe was defeated by overwhelming numbers, too much for even der Zupermen to overcome" arguments?

Why do you not read what others write?  Instead you attack with some childish nonsensical garbage.  Just reading one side of history presents just that ONE SIDE.  There is always another point of view and the truth usually lies in the middle.  All you have done is show what a jerk you can be.  Stop being one and you might learn something and so will I.  Nobody has attacked your favorite ride and certainly don't think Pyro is going to rush in here and suddenly pork the flight model on the P38, Chicken Little.

Crumpp