Author Topic: P38 a super plane? (Read 16336 times)

Crumpp · « **Reply #60 on:** November 29, 2004, 07:01:16 AM »

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No Crumpp it was more of a sketch. Thanks for the graph.

No problem. Be careful using this one. It is a rather lengthy report with pages of these graphs. I just grabbed one of the charts and scanned it. IIRC this one is if the Fortresses are at 27,000 feet. I don't remember what the exact aircraft set up was for this one.

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #61 on:** November 29, 2004, 07:46:19 AM »

Emm:
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Widewing says:
Crumpp, those 50 fighters had to defend 600 bombers extending over a huge area. Usually, they flew by squadron, rarely able to provide mutual support. They were always out-numbered by the defensive fighters. That's fact, not myth. "

In the beginning of the Bomber campaign I'd belive this is very much the case.
The Germans had ample time to plot the bombers which went over enemy area sometimes covering hundreds of miles. So the LW had ample time to form up and strike in strength.
Totally the contrary to the BoB when the strike was so close when spotted and there was no time to form up, - hence the big fight of the big wing theory.
And in 1943, the LW could mount more than just 200....just ask Izzy

MiloMorai · « **Reply #62 on:** November 29, 2004, 08:16:12 AM »

If someone wants to go throught the OoB for the end of 1943, http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LW43.html

Between JG11, 300, 301 and 302, stationed in Germany, they had ~230 a/c. Then there is the Zerstörer to be added in. These would be the a/c attacking the bombers once the P-47s had reached their range limit.

Crumpp · « **Reply #63 on:** November 29, 2004, 09:05:07 AM »

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Between JG11, 300, 301 and 302, stationed in Germany, they had ~230 a/c. Then there is the Zerstörer to be added in. These would be the a/c attacking the bombers once the P-47s had reached their range limit.

Your correct in an ideal world they could get 400 plus aircraft in the air. Operational reality (Murphy's) dictated that on average the Luftwaffe was able to get a lot fewer planes in the air. During the huge bomber raids of 1944 200 was about the average that made contact with the bomber stream. These would be divided up among the various bomber missions. Some days a lot more and some days a lot less.

Gallands whole premise for his knockout blow was the "big wing theory" with a mass interception.

You can see the Luftwaffe's total fighter strength in the chart I posted.

Crumpp

F4UDOA · « **Reply #64 on:** November 29, 2004, 10:10:37 AM »

Guys,

Before everyone jumps on Crummp please read this chart more clearly.

The 800 miles (one way) is listed for 221 gallons of fuel used. The early P-47D11 carried 305 gallons of fuel internally and the P-47D-25 carried 370 gallons of fuel. At 65GPH that one way range at 370Gallons - 45 gallons for takeoff and climb to 5,000FT as stated in the lower left corner = 335gallons / 65GPH = 5.15 hours * 259MPH TAS (200MPH IAS at 12K) for a range of 1330 miles on internal fuel.

For reference the P-38L using 350 gallons of fuel had a max range of 1210 miles (one way).

The Navy provides a formula for combat RADIUS. I have never seen the same for the AAF.

Thanks

MiloMorai · « **Reply #65 on:** November 29, 2004, 11:27:56 AM »

F4UDOA, true for most economical range.

Yet, the 56th says they had a 3 hour flying time using the 150gal dt. They were using D-10-11s at the time(Feb '44). That is 137gal/hr.

It also states on the sheet, 40gal not available in flight.

One does not stooge around at the most economical setting in a combat zone especially with the tortise acceleration of the P-47.

F4UDOA · « **Reply #66 on:** November 29, 2004, 11:50:36 AM »

Milo,

I just realized that the Vought document I have shows the P-47D11 with 305 gallons and the P-38J with 300 gallons plugged into their combat radius calcuation. It seems as if the P-47D has the edge. Here it is on the bottom of page 5.
Vought Comparitive analysis

One reason is the cruise speed at the most economical setting is 259MPH TAS at 12K. That is probably more than fast enough for bomber escort.

Another thing is the acceleration reputation of the P-38. In actual test against other A/C head to head I have not seen this brought out. In fact the P-47D-40 was superior at low and high alt in that regard in acceleration test I have seen.

Crumpp · « **Reply #67 on:** November 29, 2004, 12:01:01 PM »

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One does not stooge around at the most economical setting in a combat zone especially with the tortise acceleration of the P-47.

The USAAF escort generally had a good altitude advantage. If you see the report I have, that one I got that graph out of, it took good timing and great ground control to get the fighters into optimum position for attack. This means both altitude and position ahead and above the formations. This rarely happened.

Usually the fighters, on a clear day, would spot the bomber stream on the climb out. This meant climbing up in within sight of the bombers and having to parallel the formation to reach attack positions. The escort would be a good position to bounce them from above and break up their attack. With cloud cover it was even more difficult to maintain cohesion and get into position.

With the ranges the escort had to fly and their advantaged position I imagine they did fly at most economical settings once they reached escort altitude. If they were close escort, even at economical cruise setting, I am willing to bet they still had to zig zag in order not to leave the bombers behind.

Once Doolittle freed the fighters up in December of '44 the escort ranged ahead and really put the Luftwaffe in a dilemma. Now they could be attacked on take off or while forming up to begin the climb out. It was either launch really early, which they began to run short of fuel to do, or fight your way up to the formations of bombers which they did not have the planes or the pilots to do.

Nice Doc's F4UDOA! Thanks for sharing. Can you give me your email and I will get those docs I promised.

Crumpp

MiloMorai · « **Reply #68 on:** November 29, 2004, 12:19:52 PM »

Crumpp, that 3 hr flying time gave a range of 300-350 mi. (Drummer Lake to Boxted)

Crumpp · « **Reply #69 on:** November 29, 2004, 12:48:45 PM »

Guess you have not read F4UDOA's doc yet.

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #70 on:** November 29, 2004, 01:27:47 PM »

Just bumped across a wee more on LW strength in the later parts on the war.
Autumn 1944, operation Market-Garden.
1st launch of a total of some thousands of aircraft and gliders, cruising for hours, slowly, as a 100 mile long convoy to Holland, the allied did not get intercepted.
A couple of days later when the second wave was sent from Britain, the LW however had 190 fighters for an intercept job.
Due to various reasons, mostly timing (refuelling and such), less than 100 LW fighters managed to be in the right place at the right time.
There was a fighter screen for cover of the paradrop. No LW fighters are reported to have made it through!

So, lots to think off really.
Firstly, the LW must have been dedicated very closely on the Bombing campaign, with extremely little flexibility on other possible events.
However, they did have the possibility to react and thus perhaps reform, given a day or two.
So there you go. At least, in 1944 autumn, the LW was able to pull 190 fighters from the hat and throw it at what they belived to be a big danger. I doubt that they completely depleted their fighter strenght though.
If they had, imagine what a mess the allied bombers could have done almost everywhere....

leitwolf · « **Reply #71 on:** November 29, 2004, 02:01:56 PM »

Following this thread, I think the cover-up conspiracy to hide the uber P-38 from all unsuspecting MA pilots worked quite well again. Good work there gentlemen, thank you all. Except for Kweassa who, unfortunately, must die now

MiloMorai · « **Reply #72 on:** November 29, 2004, 02:40:23 PM »

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Originally posted by Crumpp
Guess you have not read F4UDOA's doc yet.

Crumpp

Guess you have not read comments by the pilots of the 56th then.

Crumpp · « **Reply #73 on:** November 29, 2004, 03:15:02 PM »

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Guess you have not read comments by the pilots of the 56th then

So if anecdotal evidence is the standard then why does the 109 not have maneuver flaps?

I certainly think that the case is open and shut on the "outnumbered" P38's. It just did not happen. Looks like at the very least the range was close enough they turned back with the rest of the escort.

Crumpp

MiloMorai · « **Reply #74 on:** November 29, 2004, 03:47:10 PM »

Crumpp you are as bad as Izzy when it comes to 'dream worlds' and reality.

> > theory vs actual reality < <

Feb 20 '44 was the first time the 150gal dt was available and the pilots commented that they could NOW stay airborne for 3 hours. That allowed them to reach Dummer Lake just north of Osnabruck. Call it what you want, but it is in the unit mission history. They were flying the a/c, not you, and should know how long they could stay in the air if they did not want to go for a swim in the North Sea.

July 30 '43 ferry tanks were made available which allowed the P-47s to reach the Dutch/German border. Air time was 2 hr 12 min which gave an extra 20 min of escort time for the heavies. On the 17 Aug, the 56th met the bombers returning from Schweinfurt 15 mi east of Eupen/Malamdy with these tanks.

The 353rd using 108 gal dts was able to reach within a few miles of Bremen.(Nov 25 '43)

Actually the 109 did have manuevering flaps, at least by your definition for the 190. And they were of infinite adjustment, unlike the one position Fw's.

The P-38 had over 100 mi further combat range than the P-47 in late '43-early '44.