Originally posted by Crumpp
As for the Pencil Pushers:
The US Armed Forces had a very well known rotation policy. According to the book these pilots ARE combat pilots. Once more these are not only experienced combat pilots, but we have test pilots, manufacturers, and folks like Charles Lindberg present to give commentary. You argument is rather weak and consist's of "he said, she said" with no documentation to back it up. Frankly it is whining and nothing more.
Crumpp
A couple of years ago, shortly after I ordered and received this book, I ran about 30 names of the USAAF officers listed thru Olynyk's victory lists to see if any showed up. Only one did, and that was a no-brainer; Lamphier with 4.5 victories and his claim of shooting down Yamamoto (which he didn't, Rex Barber gets that kill).
Not one of the names listed is from an active duty combat unit, not one. Engineering units are well represented. Test facilities and overhaul commands sent people. Many of the attendees were senior officers. Senior officers whose specialty was engineering. For every combat pilot there were 10 guys pushing the pencils. It is important work, but "it ain't fightin'."
Lindburgh was a great pilot, but was a liability to the 475th when they encountered the enemy. Why? Because they had to guard Lindburgh continuously because it seems the Japanese were always on his six. Even so, Lindburgh thought very highly of the P-38.
Combat leaders were in the field, either commanding or training new leaders, very few went to desk jobs, mostly those who failed at combat command found themselves flying desks and getting their flight time in trainers. I knew many desk jockies in the Navy who got their "flight time" by getting another pilot to add their name to the "yellow sheet" while they napped in the back of a transport on a logistics hop. Gotta get that flight pay....
I've said it before and it's been said by some of the attendees; this was a boondoggle. You want input from fighter pilots, then send fighter pilots to the conference. Guys from active duty combat outfits. Navy and Marine combat units rotated to and from CONUS all the time. Why do I not see any of the CAGs? Where are the aces? Where are the people who best know what they need? The answer is and was, nowhere. Where was George Welch? North American wanted to send Welch, a 15 kill ace recently hired as a test pilot. They were told, and I know this because I was told by a Welch family member, that they didn't want hot-shot fighter aces at the event. NAA ended up sending Steppe and Virgin, neither of whom were former combat pilots. Lockheed almost didn't go at all. They received their invitation two weeks before the meeting and didn't even have a P-38 to bring, they borrowed a P-38L test mule from the AAF. Martin was the factory pilot for Lockheed. According to Bodie, the Navy specifically asked that Tony LeVier NOT be sent to represent Lockheed. God forbid! That lunatic would have upset the apple cart for sure. LeVier wouldn't have gone anyway, he was neck deep in the P-80 program. By the way, Lockheed was asked to provide a YP-80 for non-flying orientation at the JFC. Lockheed said "Hell no!" Their existed but just one flyable YP-80 and that baby had only about 4 hours on it. I'm quite certain that the AAF would have gone nuts had they known of the Navy's request.
What about Republic? They had Dupoy and Jernstedt, both combat veterans with the AVG on staff as test pilots. Nope, they weren't invited. Well, at least C. Hart Miller came.
This was a Navy show. It was not taken very seriously by aircraft manufacturers whose loyalty resided with the AAF. Grumman and Vought sent their top people. Republic sent only one senior manager. Lockheed and NAA sent low level reps. Bell sent Woolams, who wanted to impress the attendees with the P-63 in hopes of getting a decent contract. They didn't have a chance. What no one remembers is that the P-63 was without doubt, the best low to medium altitude fighter in the inventory. Unfortunately, high alt, long range fighters were what the AAF wanted, not low level monsters like the King Cobra, which offered performance remarkably similar to the Soviet La-7.
This book provides a look at an engineering boondoggle, with little emphasis placed upon combat capabilities of any fighter. It's just what you say has no credibility, a "she said, he said" document where opinions varied wildly and inter-service rivalry is clearly evident.
The Late Erik Shilling read this book and posting to usenet summed the up the JFC as "pure garbage, a waste of tax payer money. Nothing beneficial came out of these meetings, other than evening cocktail parties." Who is Erik Shilling? Probably one of the best aviators this country ever produced. He was an original member of the AVG and a former Army test pilot at Langley. When the AVG disbanded, he moved from Tomahawks to C-46s and flew the Hump for two years for CNAC. Later, he flew the last aircraft out of Dien Bien Phu, Erik piloted the last relief flight in and had his French owned C-119 shot to pieces in the effort. He flew spy flights over Red China for the CIA. In the late 60s and early 70s, Shilling flew several hundred covert missions into Laos, Cambodia and even into North Vietnam while employed by the CIA's Air America. With his recent passing, we lost one of the greatest unsung heros and amazing characters ever to strap himself into an American airplane.
In short, even if I had never read the book, Erik's opinion would have been enough for me. But I did read it. All of it. And I came to a similar conclusion. Its interest resides in the engineering discussions. But, even so, these are of little value other than getting a look into the mindset of the time. I'm an engineer and I found it as dull as dirt. Money wasted that could have been better spent on something at least entertaining.
So, if this "document" is the best you have to offer that the P-38 was a crap fighter, then you're swimming upstream in the BS river. Use a snorkle.
And, you still haven't answered my other question. With what units and where? It's not a hard question. I've never known a combat vet who wouldn't tell me what his unit was and where he saw combat. Most of 'em will tell you even if you don't ask, but merely hint interest. They're justifiably proud of their service.
Maybe you're just overly modest.....
My regards,
Widewing
