Author Topic: This is what Kyoto is all about  (Read 1494 times)

Offline TheDudeDVant

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2004, 05:14:25 PM »
Question:

Would the treatie subject US business to different guidelines than the rest of the world? Or would it be uniform pollution control for all countrys?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2004, 05:18:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Question:

Would the treatie subject US business to different guidelines than the rest of the world? Or would it be uniform pollution control for all countrys?


There would not be uniform polution regulation. Countries like China and India would have far lower standards to meet than the west despite the fact they are traditionaly heavy poluters allready with a low regard for the environment and despite the fact they are now undergoing tremendous economic and industrial growth - historically the period when a nation pollutes the worst and produces the worst ecological disdasters. These nations would get these lower pollution control advantages while they compete with the west in the global economy. It gives them a huge ecomomic advantage.  

Thats why Kyoto is stupid...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 05:22:28 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline SLO

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2004, 05:25:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
so we all agree that the U.S. is a good example of what everyone else should be doing but the only reason that we want the U.S. involved is not for their superior programs and efforts and teaching.... but to punish them by making them pay for the pollution of others?

lazs


pay for your own handsomehunk superior polluting machines...

arrogance Laz sure seems to run rampant in your blood...

Offline eagl

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2004, 05:31:54 PM »
That's a loaded question thedude...

You could say just as easily that a rule universally applied that requires countries to ship goods through one port in one country is "fair" because it applies to everyone, regardless of the fact that it would affect every country differently.

Asking China to cut 10% of it's pollution is going to have a completely different effect and cost than telling the US to also cut 10%.  Again, how do you measure fairness?

You have to look at the costs and the results gained through the use of either mandatory or country-specific measures.  We know we have to cut pollution, duh.  It's not a suprise.  What we don't need is a bunch of people in a country that doesn't use coal to tell us we can't burn coal here.  We don't need countries with no beef exports to speak of telling us we need to tax cow farts.  Just because the tax is "universal" doesn't mean it is fair or even will have the intended consequences.

The world needs a good cupful of STFU when it comes to this treaty.  Take a peek at the CO and CO2 maps generated by the latest climate satellites and target the hotspots, not just the guy with the biggest wallet.  Maybe spend some time actually doing something about the lunatics cutting down and burning Brazil's rainforests for example...  Not one of those countries complaining about the kyoto treaty has a clean environmental record, whether it's excessive logging, overfishing, fishing practices that needlessly kill off non-targeted animal populations, or whatever.  They're trying to deflect attention away from themselves to what they see as an easy target.

Want to know how much we give a crap?  Take a look at the high exchange rate and you'll know how big a finger we're flipping the rest of the world.  We're making it expensive for Americans to buy foreign goods, plain and simple.  1.95 pound/dollar exchange rate?  I guess we don't buy that brit stuff anymore.  Sure it will have a short term depressive effect on the US but after normal market forces result in us entrenching ourselves against the bad exchange rate, we'll be stronger than ever and even more able to dispense those portions of STFU.

We don't need most of the rest of the world, and that pisses everyone off a great deal because they know it's true.  We just happen to have a president who's at least partially willing to say "Take your charity handouts and STFU."  You can always say no...  Many countries do and they prosper as well as they should.
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Offline lazs2

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2004, 06:18:50 PM »
sorry slo but I don't get what you are saying...  if we pollute less per capita than other countries shouldn't we expect other countries to pay to at least get to our level before we have to all go to a new level.   It seems insane to make those who pollute the least per capita while producing the most to go to even higher standards or.... worse yet.... pay for everyone elses mess.

This seems like some kind of one world socialism where those who have worked the hardedst and done the most are punished and drug down.


lazs

Offline Holden McGroin

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2004, 09:59:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
The "Little Iceage" which started in the 1500's didn't completely end till the mid-1800's.


What did we do to cause the Little Ice Age?

What did we do to end the Little Ice Age?
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Offline ra

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2004, 10:07:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
What did we do to cause the Little Ice Age?

What did we do to end the Little Ice Age?

Take a pill.  I'm pointing out that comparing today's temperature or glacier size to the temperature or glacier sizes of the 1800's is meaningless.

Offline Holden McGroin

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2004, 10:15:55 PM »
If it is meaningless to compare climate of 50 or 100 years ago to today, how do you know it is changing?  Glaciation is an indicator of climate.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline -dead-

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2004, 03:48:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Kyoto is a crock.

The biggest polluter in the world is not a signitary... China.
China signed 29/05/1998, ratified it 17/12/02. Start again. Think carefully.
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Offline lazs2

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2004, 08:52:56 AM »
china would be dumb to not sign... all they have to do is sign and wait for all the money to pour in from the other signators who will help them "get up to speed"  oh wait.... the money won't pour in until you get the U.S. to sign up...

lazs

Offline cpxxx

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2004, 08:55:06 AM »
I stopped believing in man made global warming some time ago. Many others have come round to that attitude recently too. People more expert than me.  That there is some warming going on at the moment is hard to deny. But it happens every now and then with or without human intervention. It would be fascinating to see a cold spell arrive and see how they manage to explain that away.

I actually hope these foolish court cases go ahead. Quite likely they will highlight the absurdity of the envinronmental zealots once and for all.  Cold hard facts needed for a viable court case. Far too many 'green' facts are closer to religious faith than science.

To be fair the USA does need to do more in terms of reducing the output of pollution and reducing energy consumption.  For it's own good if nothing else.

Offline lazs2

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2004, 09:03:19 AM »
to be fair... I believe that the U.S. produces less pollution per capita than say Ireland.  

And... that is living in well heated and cooled large houses and driving comfortable cars with affordable fuel.  To be fair... I believe the U.S. has higher pollution standards than most if not all other countries.

lazs

Offline Fishu

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2004, 10:11:25 AM »
Kyoto hasn't been any fairer with Finland.
Finland has been ways ahead rest of the europe at reducing the harmful industrial emissions.
No bonus for that, just the same rules as with rest of the europe, where the industry hasn't had so good technology which reduces emissions.

Way to go Kyoto, really fair.
Still Finland is part of it.

Oh well, maybe the finnish companies which were working on the technology, will get benefit of the central european industry, which has to look for ways to reduce the emissions.

Offline mora

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2004, 12:22:44 PM »
We will probably go through with it, even if everyone else drops out.

Offline -dead-

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This is what Kyoto is all about
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2004, 02:33:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
to be fair... I believe that the U.S. produces less pollution per capita than say Ireland.  

And... that is living in well heated and cooled large houses and driving comfortable cars with affordable fuel.  To be fair... I believe the U.S. has higher pollution standards than most if not all other countries.

lazs
According to the OECD, if you're talking emissions (and Kyoto is about emissions):

US per capita
SOx 62.7
NOx 84.4
CO 313.8
Particulates 10.1
VOC 57.8

Ireland per capita
SOx 42.2  
NOx 31.8
CO 76.1
Particulates  ..
VOC 25.4

Australia & Canada are worse polluters (and Norway on VOCs)per capita in the Greenhouse stuff in the OECD. Outside of the OECD there's also Bahrain and Qatar, probably due to the disproportionately large Oil & Gas business compared to the population.

The US does much better on the particulates score in the OECD table, although it's a bit speculative, because there's a lot of "no data" entries in the particulate column, and "the size of the particulates being measured varies from country to country". The US particulate figures - like several others - only measure the large PM10 particulates, which excludes the nastier stuff.

The OECD also note that in the US figures, "emissions from natural sources, agriculture and forestry, fugitive dust, prescribed burning and other fires are excluded" - which as far as I can make out, are the causes that account for the vast majority of PM10 particulates. Whether or not the other countries also do this is unclear - the notes do not overtly mention it.
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