Rumsfeld Armor Question Planted by Reporter

[Pongo]

Not sure..It was designed for none and it will never perfom as well ballistically or automotivly as something designed for the weight..
But, If I was going to occupy one of the most heavily armed populations on earth and fight an insurgency "until the jobs done"I would I would want one very very well armoured.

[-MZ-]

Originally posted by indy007
You should read Great Land Weapons of WW2.

Or "Death Traps".

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by Hogboy
I KNEW it!  No way that guys hangs his neck like that by confronting the Secretary of Defense publicly and embarassing him.

 

Ummmm, didnt he hang his neck out and publicly embarrass the secretary of defense?

[FUNKED1]

If it gets our guys better gear, who cares if Rummy or anybody else gets embarrased.

[lazs2]

I'm all for better gear no matter who gets embarassed....  What level of armor on the humvees will make then safe?

lazs

[jamusta]

Lazs,

There is no level of armor. A RPG will take out an armored humvee. A 113 would have trouble in that arena.

[Charon]

A 113 would have trouble in that arena.

The A3 variant should be much better than the A2 of its heyday (at least from the side). Still not as protected as a Bradley or a Stryker, but we have them stockplied and they would be much better than an armored Humvee.  

The A3 was also supposed to accept a bolt-on armor package but I really wonder how many of those were ever produced. I believe the potential added weight was why it had the turbo diesel and brakes that would stop you on a dime if you even thought about stopping one (without the added weight). Couldn't even use the brakes hardly -- all or nothing response.

Charon

[Steve]

Ummmm, didnt he hang his neck out and publicly embarrass the secretary of defense?

Not really, since what he was saying was a lie.

[Pongo]

He lied about digging through the junk piles for armour..why did the others cheer him then?

[Shuckins]

Sigh.

The humvee was  never meant to be an armored combat vehicle.  It was designed to be a light transport vehicle, period.  The fact that they are unarmored is hardly Rumsfeld's fault, since he didn't design it or lay down the specifications for the design.

And the question was hardly fair since steps were being taken months ago to provide armor for the humvees after their vulnerability to roadside bombs became apparent.  Iraqi companies are being employed to apply armor to these American vehicles from cannibalized Iraqi military equipment.  American companies are also producing armor for these vehicles.

The problem with these stop-gap measures is that the basic designs' suspension was not meant to handle the extra weight, which makes the vehicles unwieldy and unstable.  I believe there was another post which pointed out that many American troops have been killed or injured by these modified and overloaded humvees.

I wonder if WWII GIs complained about their Jeeps being unarmored?

[Pongo]

That is defianlty true.
My reproach for ruhmsfeld in this isnt that he is not buying armoured hummers. He is. But it is now 19 months into the occupation, an occupation that he knew about 30 months ago and that no force on earth could stop.
How long do you cut him slack for? How long did he down play the force levels required?

If the US had been very very serios about this issue it would have been solved last callender year. Period. You cant snap your fingers and make it go away. But every convoy  would have mine resistant vehicles last december if it was taken seriosly.

People are not complaining that the invasion took place in the absense of perfect equipment levels. But really. Thats nearly 2 years ago now.

[rpm]

Originally posted by Steve
Not really, since what he was saying was a lie.

Steve, you mean soldiers are NOT digging thru junkpiles looking for sheets of metal and ballistic glass to up armour their vehicles?

You can't be serious. We all know you love Bush, but burying your head in the sand will not protect soldiers lives. Rummy is the one that's lying, not the soldier on the ground.

Valley firm disputes Rumsfeld, is ready to supply Army armor

Joseph A. Reaves
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 10, 2004 12:00 AM

A Valley firm that provides critical armor for military vehicles in Iraq is operating at only half-capacity despite complaints from soldiers who say they are being sent into combat without adequate protection.

"We've been telling the Pentagon for months that we have the capacity to double our production," said former U.S. Rep. Matt Salmon, a consultant for ArmorWorks of Tempe.

"We're ready, and we haven't heard a thing."

Rumsfeld said he spoke with a general at the Pentagon before traveling to Kuwait and was told the military was doing its best to provide troops the resources they need.

"It's essentially a matter of physics," he said. "It isn't a matter of money. It isn't a matter on the part of the Army of desire. It's a matter of production and capability of doing it."

Salmon said that simply isn't true, at least in the case of ArmorWorks, which has a $30 million contract to provide composite armor kits that are fitted onto Humvee vehicles in three hours by soldiers in the field.

"The Pentagon right now, in its postdebacle spin, is trying to convince everyone that contractors are operating at peak capacity," Salmon told The Arizona Republic. "In our case it's flat-out not accurate."

Salmon, a conservative Republican who narrowly lost the 2002 governor's race, has been a paid consultant for ArmorWorks for more than a year.

He said the firm is producing about 300 armor kits a month but easily can ship twice that many.

[Holden McGroin]

In the Navy's "Construction Battalion Battle Skills Guide" Book 1,
Task 1-10 is "Perform as a member of a Convoy"

in that task is "Preparation of Safety Vehicles"

Item "C" in "Preparation of Safety Vehicles" is "Hardening a vehicle provides the personnel with a degree of protection" and goes on to desribe procedures for battlefeild modifications, including installation of Garrote bars and sandbags.

Rooting through scrap piles for hardening seems to be SOP.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Pongo

My reproach for ruhmsfeld in this isnt that he is not buying armoured hummers. He is. But it is now 19 months into the occupation,...

If the US had been very very serios about this issue it would have been solved last callender year...  But every convoy  would have mine resistant vehicles last december if it was taken seriosly.

 

Pongo, got any stats on how many roadside IEDs there were in the from about April 2003 to early October 2003?

Were there just hundreds and hundreds or maybe 30-40? 5-6 a month?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2004/10/13/pf-667700.html

[lazs2]

yes jamusta thank you... that was the way I looked at it..  probly humvees should not be used as armor.  Just as the jeep before it.

lazs