Author Topic: RAF report on Tempest vs Typhoon, Spit 14, P-51-B, FW-190, Bf-109G, (Read 3973 times)

Angus · « **Reply #15 on:** December 10, 2004, 05:59:32 PM »

So...as a sidenote, allied pilots would meet derated 190's in the air......

Anyway, from this:

"That report describes the substained climb rate of the Tempest as 200-300 fpm advantage over Typhoon 1B. It is also indicated that Tempest substained climb rate is behind 109G(seems to be 2) at all heights.

Maximum allowed speed in a dive also seems pretty low: 540 mph at 10000 feet.

I would ask how credible is that report?"

Well, this report is a comparison report to reports not posted on this thread.
So, if you rack this into the AH environment:
The Tiffy is no stellar climber, but a so-so
300 fpm more is fine.
The 109G is one of the best climbers. 109G2 in AH climbs closely to the Spit XIV, - 4000 fpm from 0-20K. So being behind that is no big embarresment.
And the dive, IAS or TAS? If it's IAS, it's quite high!!

Nashwan · « **Reply #16 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:01:06 PM »

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That report describes the substained climb rate of the Tempest as 200-300 fpm advantage over Typhoon 1B. It is also indicated that Tempest substained climb rate is behind 109G(seems to be 2) at all heights.

The tests were almost certainly carried out at 9 lbs boost, 2700 rpm. Those were the ratings used in the performance trials conducted on another Tempest the month before.

In service the Tempest was raised to 11 lbs, 2850 rpm, then possibly to 13 lbs.

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Maximum allowed speed in a dive also seems pretty low: 540 mph at 10000 feet.

That's actually the fastest I've seen for a prop fighter.

In comparison, the P-51B was limited to 505 mph at 10,000 ft, the P-51D to 480.

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #17 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:21:50 PM »

"In service the Tempest was raised to 11 lbs, 2850 rpm, then possibly to 13 lbs."

Sources and references ?

Crumpp · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:25:48 PM »

For the FW-190, the Tempest is a contemprary of the FW-190A9 or TS equipped FW-190A8, and the FW-190D9. They probably encountered BMW 801D2Q FW-190A8's early on.

Crumpp

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #19 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:34:12 PM »

IIRC the above trials against the Tempest were performed with a 'clean' 109G-2. The g-6 you mentioned was not captured yet and the part of the afdu report i have on it mentions that it crashed and earlier trials with another 109G (ie. the G-2) was put in amongst the other comparisions with Spits and Ponys.

This also gives an idea why the G-2 performed so well in the climbtest, even if no more than just 1.3ata was used instead of full power.

Crumpp · « **Reply #20 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:39:59 PM »

I like the "embarrased by it's slats opening up".

Crumpp

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #21 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:43:07 PM »

Yup, that line tells the whole story behind why they got so poor turn performance out of it. Kinda stopping at halfway from the real thing.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 10, 2004, 07:54:16 PM »

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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
It seems such tests are mostly pretty controversial.

In particular if they don't support your own beliefs

Dan/Slack

MiloMorai · « **Reply #23 on:** December 10, 2004, 08:25:22 PM »

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Originally posted by Crumpp
No Milo. FW-190's were derated throughout the lifespan of the series. Most AF derated a few of their planes. Nothing special. It is a way to get rid of inferior grade avaition fuel.

Crumpp

Not officially.

What other AFs derated 'a few of their planes'?

Crumpp · « **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2004, 01:02:40 AM »

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Not officially.

Ahh yes, Officially Milo. How else would it be done.

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What other AFs derated 'a few of their planes'?

According to Larry Wilson at the NASM, all the AF's in the world "de rated" motors. It was common practice and allowed the Force to use up inferior grade Aviation fuel without damaging rated engines.

Crumpp

Furball · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2004, 05:58:06 AM »

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"Reaching Newchurch airfield at 480 mph I held "RB" down to 20 ft from the runway and then pulled her up to a 60 ° climb holding it as the speed dropped slowly off and the altimeter needle spun round the dial as if it were mad. At 7000 ft the speed was dropping below 180 mph and I rolled the Tempest lazily inverted, then allowed the nose to drop until the horizon, at first above my head, disappeared below (or rather above) the now inverted nose, the fields and woods steadied into the centre of the windscreen and then whirled around as I put the stick hard over and rolled around the vertical dive. Steadying again I pulled out over the tree tops at 500 mph, throttled back and pulled hard over towards the airfield in an over-the-vertical climbing turn, lowering the wheels and flaps in a roll as the speed dropped. What a magnificent aeroplane! They could have all their Spitfires and Mustangs!"
("My part of the sky", Roland Beamont)

love that quote on the website, had it as sig for a while.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #26 on:** December 11, 2004, 06:28:43 AM »

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Originally posted by Crumpp
Ahh yes, Officially Milo. How else would it be done.

According to Larry Wilson at the NASM, all the AF's in the world "de rated" motors. It was common practice and allowed the Force to use up inferior grade Aviation fuel without damaging rated engines.

Crumpp

Produce a document, or two.

Nice useless statement. Now lets have some examples of specific Allied a/c that were derated do to inferior grade Avgas.

Crumpp · « **Reply #27 on:** December 11, 2004, 07:02:53 AM »

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Nice useless statement. Now lets have some examples of specific Allied a/c that were derated do to inferior grade Avgas.

It is a fact that BMW 801's show up as de-rated throughout the war. Why?

1. Buy my book when it comes out (best approach)

2. Don't want to wait, then....

I encourage you once again to join:

http://www.white1foundation.org

As this very subject will covered in our first newsletter in detail. Jose and Mike will be adding some input and you might very well get some of the documentation you are screaming for in this thread.

According to Larry at the NASM you can find:

P40's, P 51's, P38's, P39's, just to name a few. This would have involved spark plug changes, fuel setting adjustments, and possibly timing changes in the motor. All contributing to a decline in available power.

You made the claim:

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Milo says:
The only 190s that were de-rated were the A-3s.

You produce document to back it up. I have already sent in the proof for this to Pyro.

Crumpp

MiloMorai · « **Reply #28 on:** December 11, 2004, 07:25:30 AM »

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Originally posted by Crumpp

You produce a document to back it up. I have already sent in the proof for this to Pyro.

Crumpp

I am not the one making the claim that engines were dereated because of inferior Avgas.

quote: "It was common practice and allowed the Force to use up inferior grade Aviation fuel without damaging rated engines."

So you can't produce any document, or examples, showing any a/c was 'dereated' because of inferior grade Avgas. Why I am I not surprised that you cop out.

Crumpp · « **Reply #29 on:** December 11, 2004, 07:38:01 AM »

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Why I am I not surprised that you cop out.

Why don't you go spend the money and the time and do the research?

Instead you would rather sponge off others and act like a spoiled child when things don't go your way.

Crumpp