Author Topic: RAF report on Tempest vs Typhoon, Spit 14, P-51-B, FW-190, Bf-109G,  (Read 3914 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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RAF report on Tempest vs Typhoon, Spit 14, P-51-B, FW-190, Bf-109G,
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2004, 09:50:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
That's why you are fun to watch.

So what is your next stupid claim after your latest mistakes on derated engines?

Crumpp


Me, I am not trying to be the big man, unlike you Crumpp. Never came across such a pompous so full of himself blowhard expert on everything as you before.  :rofl

Mistakes, only in your confused mind. Still waiting for other examples of Allied a/c that you claim were 'derated'.

Looked for the post with the question on why the A-3 was derated on the Focke Wulf Fw190 Board at White 1. Afraid to post it?

Can't wait for your pulp reference book. My copy will come from the photocopier at the library.

Now go visit Angus so he can lower his fertilizer bill.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2004, 09:58:24 PM »
Quote
Looked for the post with the question on why the A-3 was derated on the Focke Wulf Fw190 Board at White 1. Afraid to post it?


It's not on the board, Milo.

Newsletter......

The one which will be posted in the members only section.  The one I am finishing up.  

I really wish you would join the foundation.  If you are truly interested in the history of the airwar, Focke-Wulf, and the technical details of the design you would really enjoy it.

Crumpp

Offline Kurfürst

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RAF report on Tempest vs Typhoon, Spit 14, P-51-B, FW-190, Bf-109G,
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2004, 06:14:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus

Oh, and for Izzy.
Don't know of those XIV's in the far east, but they got VIII's by the bundles, and the performance is quite similar.


This goes right into my 'Best of Angie' folder. Next to "the london firefighters emptied the Thames in 1940'. (do you have a picture of that event?) :D

FYI, the MkVIII was a no more than 400mph plane, in fact not any better than the MkIX, expect it`s quite a bit heavier and less manouverable. Same engine. The only real advantage over other Spits was it`s larger fuel capacity and range, making it more useful in the far east than the other short legged spits. But some 50 mph slower than the XIV.

As for examples of derated allied a/c, I know the Mk I, Mk V, Mk IX, Mk XVI and XIV Spitfires were derated at some time during their carreer, also the Typhoon, Tempest, P-51 etc.
Derated a/c are not rare in military service.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2004, 06:44:19 AM »
Oh, I'll find the source for Izzy.
Time-Life publishing of "The Battle of Britain"

And for the Mk VIII look up Quill's comparison with the IX and then the Performance Specs.

Better still, I'll do it

Brb.

Angus
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2004, 08:21:27 AM »
Ok, here you go. I found the source, and put the base info together, since the text I have in Icelandic. Author is Leonard Mosley and the editor of Time-Life books. The book series go under the name World War II. First print in the US 1977.

Raid on London on the 29th of December 1940. At night of course.
Aircraft participating: 244. Incendiaries as main load.
Sunday night, Christmas season.
Many of the fireguards were with their families.
The roofing of many buildings in the City were from wood, - it was after all an old city part, - the heart of London. It had burned before, - in 1666.
The Fire brigades were remarkably quick to the scene, but the fires were quickly raging and an incredible amount of water was needed to fight the fires.
The autumn had been dry, so there litttle water in the Thames.
The pumps quickly emptied the river down to the mud, so just a little bit of muddy water came out of the firehoses.
Hundreds of historical buildings burned down that night, but St.Paul's was however saved."


Then the next one:
The notorious Spitfire Mk VIII  :D

My speed specs go as 361 mph on the deck and 404 mph at  20200 feet. Climb to that alt is roughly 5 minutes.
It is very much in the same ballpark as the best of the IX's and the 109G2 basically. It climbs very well for the wight, however I do not have the load there, could be normal load.
What Quill sais:
Fuel capacity: 124 gallons internal, a four cannon wing (!)
Then, page 220:
"The Mk VIII, however, was by far the better aeroplane and because of it's tropicalisation, improved range, and other refinements it was allocated to the overseas commands while fighter command soldiered on with the Mk IX's in the tempered conditions at home.
P. 221
"I considered the extended wingtips of the early Mk VIIs (Typo?) entirely unnecessary. The aeroplane was not, in my view, a specialised high-altitude machine; it was an air-combat fighter of excellent all-round performance and destined of theaters of war where it would have to operate in a wide variety of cirkumstances. The extended wing tips did nothing for it except increase the lateral damping and spoil the aileron control. I complained incessantly to Joe Smith about them and did my best to get rid of them Eventually - thank the Lord - when the Merlin 66 engine was brought in on the Mk VIII, we reverted to the standard wing-tip configuration. We then had an excellent aeroplane which was very pleasant to handle and with perormance as good as the Mk IX with many other advantages added on"

Now, I remember an Izzy performance quotation, where as the Mk IX, just the infamous "JL" was used, so the Mk VIII is of course miles ahead.
Other Mk IX's have similar performance to the VIII.
Then I remember a roll rate quotation from Izzy as well.
Of course he used the wing-tip-extended Mk VIII to prove his point that the Spitfire's roll rate decreased through the war.
Well, enough of that, My Izzy-folder does not yet exist, - it would quickly become too big for my HD :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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RAF report on Tempest vs Typhoon, Spit 14, P-51-B, FW-190, Bf-109G,
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2004, 09:52:39 AM »
Angus, Barbi has a dual 80Gb drive 'pute for the data collected about his friends. :D

I see you have caught on to Barbi's selective use of data.

Come Barbi, lets have some specific examples for speciific a/c of derating.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2004, 10:50:02 AM »
From Milo:
"I see you have caught on to Barbi's selective use of data."

Hehe, yes. This was actually from an answer to Barbi, where I turned a bit into his selection (JL Spit vs Tsagi's 109 from him, how nice).

None the less, in the other thread I promoted the suggestion of bringing data rather than just debating. There are huge gaps to be filled with climb, speed etc.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2004, 10:57:55 AM »
Angie, FYI the MKVIII could do about 400mph, the XIV something like 450.. far far away!!

I`d like to see a picture of the 'emptied thames', though. I always though it was some more serious river, not just a fishpond.

Most likely either you or the author of that text didn`t really considered a broken water line a possibility for muddy water... which afaik happened on that night, as german bombs damaged some main piping somewhere. ;) I`d sooner believe the tales of Thor drinking the oceans for the giants. :D
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2004, 11:51:53 AM »
Hello Izzy
Now I have to call you an Idiot, and I am very insulted indeed by the way you promote these things of your's.
BTW, did you ever see the Thames? Bet not.
Better still, when it goes to rivers, it comes to cubic metres in a second. The Thames flows quite slowly, but it has a god volume though.
It must really piss you off when again and again my memory from reading proves right, and I pop up with the sourse.
THIS IS A SOURCE, and I bloody well stated it, so for once lift yer arse and read in print for yourself. You'll not have a good time though, for it provides ample sources for the LW's night terror bombings in the winter of 1940, - when there was yet no remedy for it.
Speaking of waterlines, they broke all the time. The City is along the Thames, and the fire brigade used hoses and pumps to pump the water straight out of the river, - easy and effective.
I wonder if you ever did some plumming, well I bloody well did.!!!
I hope Furball for one could drop in with some stuff about this, anyway this is ample stuff for a new thread.
But I am very disappointed in you Izzy, and yet, from so many posts from you I should have expected something like this.
IMBE-CILE :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2004, 11:59:22 AM »
Then on to the Spit XIV.
Are you saying it topped out at 454 mph?????
Well, that's 50 mph faster than 404......

If so, source?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2004, 01:47:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Hello Izzy
Now I have to call you an Idiot, and I am very insulted indeed by the way you promote these things of your's.
[/B]

Your on MW 50 ? :D


Quote
Originally posted by Angus
BTW, did you ever see the Thames? Bet not..
Better still, when it goes to rivers, it comes to cubic metres in a second. The Thames flows quite slowly, but it has a god volume though.
[/B]

I did not see the Thames directly, but of course naturally I have seen how big it is, and it raised some doubts in me (to put it mildly). It`s at least half the size of the Danube, with which I have some experience with, and frankly, whoever claims they can empty a river of such size is definietely out of his mind, not even the doctor needs to see him. any photos of this supernatural sight?

Quote

It must really piss you off when again and again my memory from reading proves right, and I pop up with the sourse.
[/B]

Subjective idealism. "sourse" is spelled with 'c' btw.


Quote
THIS IS A SOURCE, and I bloody well stated it, so for once lift yer arse and read in print for yourself.
You'll not have a good time though, for it provides ample sources for the LW's night terror bombings in the winter of 1940, - when there was yet no remedy for it..
[/B]

"LW's night terror bombings in the winter of 1940" ?
That`s something new. British(!!) accounts I have read were actually amazed by the tightness of their bomb pattern around strategic targets.


Quote

I wonder if you ever did some plumming, well I bloody well did.!!!
[/B]

You live in a sewer perhaps? :lol
Based on your style, I have no doubts about your experience. :D


Quote

Then on to the Spit XIV.
Are you saying it topped out at 454 mph?????
Well, that's 50 mph faster than 404......
[/B]

I have seen it topped out at 448mph.
That`s 54mph + than 394mph the far east MkVIIIs were capable of.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14speedchart.jpg
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit8adsaussie.jpg
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2004, 02:08:41 PM »
Hello Izzy
Well my experience includes plumming, AND crossing the Thames.
Would you belive that firefighters have been able to stop flowing lava with intense pumping of sea water? Please say no.....
BTW, I've seen and mostly crossed Danube, Rhein, Moldau, The Seine etc etc.
Here is a link to photos of a very nice river and a Waterfall, - the canyon under the waterfall is belived to be 70 m. deep.
To pump this one dry, you'd need 109 cm/sec
http://www.geysircenter.com/islenska/gullfoss_photos.html
I have a Slurry tank at home. With it's vaccum pump, running on some hp (it's quite light, a 20 hp tractor engine is ample) I would need about 700 pumps to suck this river dry.
I have no doubts that the fire Brigades that night had hundred(s) of pumps, and that the flowing volume of the Thames may have been quite a bit less.

Oh, and for the rest, Thank you so much for pointing out the high Speed of the Spitfire Mk XIV :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2004, 03:59:56 PM »
Crumpet,

I have read that report about the Thames being run dry before, and believe it.  There are areas of the Thames that acan be very shallow at low tide, under certain circumstances.  I also have heard your arguments about the "terror" bombing of London in 1940, and I have to ask:

What cave have you been hiding in for the last several years?

The night bombing of London and other British targets is an established fact.  It is also an established fact that London's east end was bombed back to the stone age during those raids.  There were thousands of casualties, I have seen pictures of the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets, and films made by both sides.

Now, unless you can tell me how the luftwaffe magically picked out pinpoint targets at night, you must admit that night bombing was area bombing.  Area bombing does not provide target selection capability.

It happened.  Get over it.  Move on.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2004, 04:08:09 PM »
Quote
Crumpet,


Poobert....

You need to check your glasses or maybe pick up a copy of "Hooked on Phonics" because I don't mention the Thames nor I am involved in that discussion.

Crumpp

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2004, 04:21:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Poobert....

You need to check your glasses or maybe pick up a copy of "Hooked on Phonics" because I don't mention the Thames nor I am involved in that discussion.

Crumpp



Oh, so sorry, I was thinking of the other idjit.