Author Topic: Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?  (Read 2656 times)

Offline Shuckins

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« on: December 11, 2004, 08:13:16 AM »
This is not an Allies versus Axis debate.  It is a country versus country discussion.  Arguments pro or con for any particular nation's pilots should consider, but not be limited to, the following factors:

1.  Training (Strengths and weaknesses of each nation's approach.)

2.  Individual skill in one on one combat.

3.  Tactics;  at the two-man, four-man, or squadron level.

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

Offline GScholz

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2004, 08:17:41 AM »
Training: USA/UK

Individual skill 1-1: Japan

Tactics: Germany
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Offline straffo

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2004, 08:21:16 AM »
I'll discuss the individual skill with France where emphasys was put on individial fight àla WWI more than team work.

Offline mora

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2004, 08:28:21 AM »
Finland is very close to the top, at least by numbers.

Offline Crumpp

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2004, 05:07:22 PM »
The Luftwaffe produced a very small percentage of really experienced pilots and their pre-war training standards where very high.

The majority of Luftwaffe pilots however were poorly trained cannon fodder.

The USAAF and RAF had much higher individual pilot training standards with the exception of the very begining.

AS already pointed out, their tactics were the best and by wars end in use with all the major combatants except Japan.

By the last years of the war though, it was a mute point, as most Luftwaffe pilots could not fly the formations or use the tactics with their level of training.

Crumpp

Offline Flyboy

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Re: Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2004, 05:08:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
2.  Individual skill in one on one combat.


israel, no doubt about it.










Hey, you didnt say WW2 :D

Offline -tronski-

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2004, 12:31:26 AM »
Tactics early war: Germany, Japan
Training early war: Germany
Bravery early war special mention: Poland

Mid war-late war: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Great Britain incl. RAF allied , the United States

Mid war tactics special mention: USN

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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2004, 12:38:28 AM »
Clearly Germany had the best training, tactics and pilots.

Thats a simple fact.

Further, any objective analysis will conclude that the allies only won because of lag, HOs and gangbanging, and oh the BS hispano.

Offline SunTracker

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2004, 12:42:21 AM »
Which country had the most Aces?

Offline bunch

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2004, 03:01:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Clearly Germany had the best training, tactics and pilots.

Thats a simple fact.

Further, any objective analysis will conclude that the allies only won because of lag, HOs and gangbanging, and oh the BS hispano.


it is proven, otherwise how'd the germans rack up the perk points for all those 262s?

Offline Kurfürst

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2004, 05:35:13 AM »
I wonder how training could be compared, really. It`s not just how many hours he received, it counts a LOT what exactly he was thought during that.. For example, the US pilots are usually called well trained, which is true in the sense that they passes a very long training, but from what I have read just recently, this training was rather more about flying and not fighting. They grow very good at handling the aircrafts, general flying skills, but there was very little simulated air combat done otherwise. In that sense, they were rookies, but also highly agressive, as told by their German opponents, and important attribute to a fighter, especially if you have massive advantage in numbers. I can`t say for the RAF, pre-war they seem to have followed the same trend, and in mid-1940, only the most basic training was given. Then what happened, I don`t know. Did they increased the amount of combat training or they kept telling the pilots just how to take off and fly in formation? The LW held the RAF pilots far less agressive and less initiative than those of the USAAF. I can say very little for the Russians, their training AFAIK was rather low standard, never more than 50 hours received. They gained their experience directly via combat - some were very good indeed, most of them were poor..
Japanese were of course the BEST individually trained fighter pilots early in the war, a true elite. But they can`t keep up that training with those losses, so quality declined..
Germany of course was in far the best position early in the war, with a lot already learned in Spain, and not having Stalin at home to mass execute guys like Moelders and Galland. They already perfected their tactics there, and only refined them later. German training seem to always strongly emphasize on tactics of air combat, and lasted well after the official training course, the rookie being first sent to replacement units, then he was put under the wings of an experienced rottenfuhrer, to learn how things go in life. Up to about 1943, their rookies spent just as much time in trainers as the Allies, and they received it from experienced teachers. From 1944 onwards, the training time went down to about half, to 100 hours for a fighter pilot, half of that the Western Allies but twice of their Soviet foes. But they still received very good tactical training, practicing air combat, the moelders formation was high on priorities. It gave them a very good base to start with, but the experience had to be also gained in real combat.
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Offline Crumpp

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2004, 06:52:45 AM »
The Luftwaffe was not best trained AF in WWII by any means.  That is a myth just like the "large Luftwaffe".

It was a small force and not very well trained.  The Luftwaffe did produce a very few extremely experienced pilots who were well trained.

Only in the begining did they hold any training advantage.



Crumpp

Offline Kurfürst

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2004, 07:04:42 AM »
Crumpp, its an excellent chart (from where is it from BTW?), but as all statistics, it can be misleading. You missed the main point I raised, ie. the quality of training. The best trained pilot is who receives the most practical and longest training. Overall = Quality x Quantity.

For example, if Air Force A has 300 training hours, but only 5 hours of that is air combat, and Air Force B has 200 training hours, but 50 hours of that is spent on air combat manouvers, which pilot would you judge the better, the one with 300 or 200 hours ?

Kinda like spending 5 years on the Harvard is not equal spending 5 years in some backyard 'university'.

OTOH, I disagree with your 'few experten, lots of rookies' theory. The LW had a very large pool of experienced pilots, as indicated by the sheer number of the aces they produced. Literally thousends, and not just the 'big names'. of course it was the experienced pilots who scored the most. But why, isn`t that the case with all airforces, or even, other aspects of life?
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Offline Tilt

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2004, 07:28:16 AM »
Actually Russian training was well organised and quite diciplined what it may have lacked was tactical content (but so famously did that of the RAF)

All Russian  fighter pilots went thru a standard training and many returned to be trainers after  a year at the front.

Some trainers them selves went on to be Russian Aces.

However field training was deemed very important and tactical classes were held between sorties to discuss situations encountered on previous missions and aviod or benefit from them on future missions.

These classes were a far cry from "mess gossip" which seemed to be the rule elsewhere.

Frontline trainers went from regiment to regiment checking the quality of field classes and  flying with the regiment to inspect its quality of acm.

Which country had the best?  Well it had to be Germany the LW elite were the most experienced fighter pilots in history todate and whilst their numbers dwindled to nearly naught I doubt their massive lead in shear experience (as individuals) can be equaled.
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Offline Crumpp

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Which Country Produced the Best Fighter Pilots?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2004, 07:50:08 AM »
Quote
For example, if Air Force A has 300 training hours, but only 5 hours of that is air combat, and Air Force B has 200 training hours, but 50 hours of that is spent on air combat manouvers, which pilot would you judge the better, the one with 300 or 200 hours ?


This is true , Izzy. Problem though is that in order to gain experience you have to survive the lesson.

The Pre-1943 trained pilots recieved the pre-war training course and died at a fairly steady rate the entire war.  They actually had a much better chance of surviving 6 years of conflict than a B17 crew had of surviving 25 missions in 1943.

The Post-1943 pilots died like flies with an almost 98 percent attrition rate.  The Majority died on their first 6 missions.  If they could survive those first 6 missions statistically their chances of survival went up astronomically.  Just a little below the pre-1943 pilots.

http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/thtrlosses.htm

They had a tremendous turnover rate.  In the last years of the war, the Luftwaffe accident rate shoots up to almost 50 percent. Almost half their casualties are self inflicted in flying accidents!

Here is another table that agrees with Caldwells research.



In 1944 the USAAF was launching bomber raids that had MORE bombers than the Luftwaffe had fighters in their whole force to shoot them down.  These bombers are escorted by as many fighters or in some cases more than the Luftwaffe could launch to intercept.

That is only the Western Front.  Throwing in the pressure from the MTO and the Eastern front it is very easy to see the Luftwaffe quickly became "no place for amatuers".  

They were short sighted and did not plan to conserve their fighter force's strength or enact an effective replacement program.  They gambled on a short war and lost big.

Now they did produce a large number of aces because the Luftwaffe existed for much of the war in a very target rich enviroment.  Mike Spick has a great study on the sortie to kill ratio.  Hartmann's was below average IIRC and the majority of the Luftwaffe Experten were average.  They just encountered the enemy much more often.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 12, 2004, 07:52:12 AM by Crumpp »