The PJ cometh

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Karnak
I think the 8th FC data he is refering to is the 414mph top speed of the P-38L.  CVH has several times stated that the 414mph speed was it's top speed on MIL power and the P-38L's top speed on WEP was, IIRC, about 440 or 450mph.

And I KNOW you are wrong. The 414 MPH data is from the USAAC, and not the 8th AF FC.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Could we use the 2000hp Fw190D-9 then?

Which has what to do with a discussion about the P-38?

And if you have reliable proven data from manufacturers documentation and logs, from the aircraft company and the engine company, I have no problem with it.

You asked why these discussions seem to degenerate into flamefests and Luftwhiner name calling. Since you insert your comments like the above into EVERY thread about the P-38, and half the other Allied plane threads, the answer stares you in the face when you look in the mirror. You brought the Luftwaffe into this thread now, and in the other thread you posted derogatory remarks about P-38 pilots in an "Axis Flaps" thread. So when threads degenerate the way you complain they do, ask yourself how much you contributed to making it happen. And again note that this is a thread about the P-38, where the Luftwaffe was not mentioned until YOU decided to bring it in. Think about it.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Wotan
He asked for your references. You will need more then the "Mr. P38 pilot said..." line that is always the main part of your argument.

Post credible documents or data and I am sure Pyro will look at them.

You cited Lockheed P-38 Lightning by Steve Pace and Pyro read the pages and doesn't see what it is you 'interpreted after you re-read it several times'. As if your lack of objectivity would allow any other interpretation.

As Kweassa said there's all types of this sort information floating about for every aircraft in AH. You don't model planes based on some poorly written section of a book or because based on the memory of 80 year old men. You need real data.

Wotan, is there any particular reason you feel it is necessary to insert yourself into a conversation between Pyro and myself? I think he and I can discuss sources and data without any help at all from you. I will provide Pyro with more data when I have time, all I did was ask about his sources, and point him to something I happened to read recently. Pyro saw what I was talking about, and found it ambiguous, and I agree, it is, and it is hard to read.

DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?


You and Kweassa both need to look at what you brought to this thread the next time one of these threads goes careening out of control. You both complain about flamefests and "Luiftwhiner" insults, but continually insert your comments and insults into every thread about Allied planes, especially the P-38. And yet you wonder why the threads all turn out the same.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.

[oboe]

No WEP on the P-38G?     I can't abide fighter planes with no WEP.    It just feels downright 1940!

Virgil and Dan/Slack, if you have more specific data on WEP for the G, please get those references to Pyro.    Let's get this issue ironed out BEFORE it's introduced to the game.   The Ki.84 is fine now but it felt awful without a WEP setting.   Thanks in advance for helping out any way you can!

If its true the G ha no WEP then let me be the first to ask for the H instead (or in addition to)...

Just saw your last post, Virgil, thanks really for helping get the early '38 modelled correctly.  

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by oboe
No WEP on the P-38G?     I can't abide fighter planes with no WEP.    It just feels downright 1940!

Virgil and Dan/Slack, if you have more specific data on WEP for the G, please get those references to Pyro.    Let's get this issue ironed out BEFORE it's introduced to the game.   The Ki.84 is fine now but it felt awful without a WEP setting.   Thanks in advance for helping out any way you can!

If its true the G ha no WEP then let me be the first to ask for the H instead (or in addition to)...

Just saw your last post, Virgil, thanks really for helping get the early '38 modelled correctly.  

oboe,
Most of the early P-38's had cooling issues, and any setting like WEP was only available for very short durations. Also, in some theaters of operation, the fuel was very poor quality, and WEP could not be used. The USAAC often downrated engines for reliability reasons, and they were VERY conservative.

I have no interest at all in making the P-38, any model, into some sort of "uber" ride. All I am interested in is getting it right. As Pyro said the data on the P-38 is very ambiguous and convoluted, especially if you use anything other than official Lockheed or Allison data. This is because the USAAC data is very questionable, because it is based on opinion, conjecture, and politics.

[Pyro]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I was looking at your post where you said the "8th FC was testing and adopting their own standards as well which makes it even more convoluted."

Gave me the impression you were looking at their Bravo Sierra as if it were reliable and accurate data, which it is not.

I'm not sure what you're talking about now.  I was just pointing out that there's a lot more to the subject of early 38 engine ratings than what was described.

I don't know why you would doubt it, but with the early 38's, 8th FC was much more aggressive regarding engine ratings than what was officially prescribed.  They were even looking at adopting WEP on the 38F which would have given 1450 HP at 52".

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And I KNOW you are wrong. The 414 MPH data is from the USAAC, and not the 8th AF FC.

As I indicated in my post, I wasn't certain that I recalled correctly.

No need to get so defensive.

[Wotan]

You are the one with the issues, err 'problems' in that any one who doesn't agree with your fantasies is some how against you.

Look at the shift in your tone to Pyro after he read the same thing you did and came to a different conclusion, look at your reply to both Kweassa and Karnak.

You set the tone with your replies not the other way around. If you want to treated as something other then a kook then look to own behavior. Every P38 thread you stick your head in and never provided anything more then 'Mr. XX said...'

Pyro asked for your sources and you have provided nothing.

You want to construct the p38 out some image you have rather then providing the data that is necessary to model the aircraft. You just offer opinions and stories. As kweassa rightly pointed out anyone can come up with opinions and stories about every plane in AH.

So far you contribution to the this thread was to accuse Pyro of using BS '8th AF' data and the only thing you provided was

'After reading the section several times I was able to make up on my own what the author really meant.'

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Pyro
I'm not sure what you're talking about now.  I was just pointing out that there's a lot more to the subject of early 38 engine ratings than what was described.

I don't know why you would doubt it, but with the early 38's, 8th FC was much more aggressive regarding engine ratings than what was officially prescribed.  They were even looking at adopting WEP on the 38F which would have given 1450 HP at 52".

Like I said, I misunderstood you. I read the post and noticed the section where you referred to the 8th AF FC. The majority of what I've read in the past does not cast a good light on what the 8th AF did with the P-38. While they had a few bright moments, overall they did a poor job with it.

I know that what was in that small book was not by any stretch the whole story, it really is nothing more than some snippets from other books and sources, I just happened to be reading it this week because I got it as a gift from a well meaning friend. I agree, it was hard to get the information from that section, I had to read it 3 times myself. There are far better books, I know. Most of mine are on loan, or in storage, or worst of all, gone, not returned by people who borrowed them.


And most of what I've read from the 8th AF FC is exactly the opposite. Not to mention the USAAC was more conservative in most areas.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Most of mine are on loan, or in storage, or worst of all, gone, not returned by people who borrowed them.
 

  Back in the dinosaur days my 1st wife went the same way of some of your books.
  A buddy borrowed her and left town. He never did return her or come back.



Man, I sure do miss him.  

[Canaris]

Originally posted by Karnak
Why was this worth a new thread and what is the big deal about the P-38J?  It'll just be a poorer rolling P-38L that can't dive while having a very slightly faster top speed.  What do you expect it to bring to the table that makes it "Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet."?

Exactly, why couldnt we get the 38D or the 38H which have more unique characteristics than the 38L.  It would be a lot more interesting if we had the 38D or the 38H.


Canaris

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Canaris
Exactly, why couldnt we get the 38D or the 38H which have more unique characteristics than the 38L.  It would be a lot more interesting if we had the 38D or the 38H.


Canaris

We're getting the P-38G too.  Also the P-38J will be distinct from the P-38L, just not the good ways that some seem to expect.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Canaris
Exactly, why couldnt we get the 38D or the 38H which have more unique characteristics than the 38L.  It would be a lot more interesting if we had the 38D or the 38H.


Canaris

38D makes no sense since it never saw combat, despite what some folks claim.

P38G makes great sense as it was the first Lightning variant with over 1000  produced.

This is about double F production and more then double H production.  The G was the first to get the reinforced wing that allowed for the ferry tanks and larger bomb loads.

Performance between the F, G and H was comparable so the G is the perfect compromise.

For what it's worth the 339th FS that intercepted Yammamoto were flying G models.

The most active 38 groups in Europe from 42 on, the 1st, 14th and 82nd flew a mix of Fs and Gs.

Same goes for the Pac 38 groups into early 44 when the got the Js and later Ls.

Bottom line is the G model is the best choice for an early 38.

Early J gives the longer range and better performance and was used extensively before the J-25 and L models arrived with the power boosted ailerons and dive flaps.

The G and J along with the L cover all the ground, both for folks who like early war birds in the MA and for scenario use

Dan/Slack

[Delirium]

I did alot of looking around some time ago and Dan/Slack is right on the money.

The first air victory was recorded by a P38F by Elza Shahan, while the P38Ds were used primarily for training roles.

Still, it would of been nice to have that potatoe gun the P38Ds had.  

[Murdr]

Just in case.  Here is a diagram of the armor/winshield/gunsite for P-38J-5-LO and earlier models.  J-10-LO and later had the L-3 gunsite and armored windshield.

Image linked due to size