Flying the Dora.

[Urchin]

Just started flying the Dora after a couple months of flying the 109s and the 190A's.

Just curious here, but I'd appreciate if some folks that fly the plane could verify or otherwise some observations of mine.  

1.  The plane is straight out FAST!!!  Thats actually the best part of it as far as I can tell.  

2.  Zoom climb is OK, I couldn't outzoom LA7s on two different occasions (which the 109G10 will do)- But I WAS able to dive away from them after they missed the shot both times.  That leads me to say that-

3.  The diving ability of this plane is very nice.  It also seems to retain speed better than the 109G10 does after levelling out of a dive.

4.  The guns are so-so.  It is really tough for me to do any sort of deflection shooting because the forward visibilty is so bad.  Could anyone give me a custom gunsight that is made for a higher cockpit position?  When the guns hit they seem to work OK, at least as well as the other German planes.

5.  The plane is frail.  I've only flown the Dora for 2 nights now, and I've had the radiator shot off at least 8 times - half of them from a plane that was shooting at my tail.  Where exactly is the radiator mounted that it would be possible to lose it to a bullet entering the rear of the plane?  Of course, all the 190s seem to be somewhat more frail than their reputation would suggest, so this may not be abnormal.

6.  The Dora is, hands down, the worst turning plane I've ever flown.  A 190A8 can outturn a Dora (I've never tried it, but I can stay on a F4U's tail in a 190A8, whereas a normal flat turn shook me off in the D9).  Is there any plane that the Dora can out turn?  I firmly believed that the 190A8 was the WORST turning plane in Aces High, and now I think I was wrong.  It is the 190D9.

7.  The Roll rate on the Dora is slower than the roll rate on the A series, but it still feels very crisp at the controls.

Anyway, thats about it for now.  Any tips and tactics for dealing with N1K2's and LA7s I'll take, although it probably involves running, since the Dora doesn't seem to do dogfighting.

[Naudet]

Yes it is fast.

The radiator is mounted directly behind the prob in an armored cooling ring! But we all hope 1.08 fixes this radiator 1 ping death.

Turning, yes i agree, and thats my main critic point on the D9 it should turn better than the A8 especially in a substained turn.


How to fly it, very simple, keep it fast, get alt and dont turn, dont even try to turn, that is normaly the beginning of the end.
Try to surprise ur tgt.
In defense use scissors or when u have alt dive straigt to an altittude were ur faster than the attacker.
Thats all, and be patient, u will lose lots of kills to friends in better turning planes or due to the bad punch of the guns.

I just came back after 7 weeks break and i was already upset again by the poor turning performance the AH D9 gives, only plane u can turn is another FW190A8 or F8 that has full tanks.

[Wilbus]

Not sure how the Dora turned in real life, not sure how the A8 turned either but it was said by the German pilots that the A8 was a pretty bad dogfighter, specially the Sturmbock verison with 30mm and 20mm and 13mm guns (AH) + lots of Extra Armor (modelled in AH?). The D9 however was about the best prop plane the germans put out during the war, speed, climb and manuverability, however, this doesn't mean it should turn better.

Acording to the sources I have the Dora should make 32k Climb in 7 minutes and 6 seconds, in AH (100% fuel no DT) it gets to about 26k with WEP all the way, that is slighlty more then 10 minutes. May be same thing with all other planes.

[Lephturn]

I'm not the right fellow to comment on the accuracy of the D9's flight model.  If you want to discuss that, I suggest a post in the Aircraft forum.  You'll get more informed opinions there.

Now, about how to use the Dora's strengths... and yes, it can dogfight, it just can't turn!  The Dora is a great E fighter, it is fast and accellerates well combined with good dive, zoom, high speed handling, and a great roll rate.  In addition to it's E fighting qualities, the Dora can dictate the fight to most other planes in the game based on it's pure speed and great accelleration.  To be successful you must start fights with an E advantage, and fly in a manner that protects that advantage.  You must use vertical moves whenever possible, and rely on lag pursuit, lag displacement rolls, and any other moves that conserver your speed and energy while maintaining position on the bandit.  More than anything... USE THE VERTICAL LUKE!

To be honest, the D9's turning ability is pretty much irrelevent.  If you have to rely on that, you are screwed anyway.  That's like relying on the Zeke's speed and toughness to get you out of trouble.    Simply put the D9 MUST have an energy advantage at the start of the fight to expect to win.  It's like the Jug in this regard.  On the positive side, this plane has the speed and accelleration to disengage almost any other plane until you can get that advantage.  You can even use high speed shallow climbs to turn the E tables on your opponents if you manage your speed carefully and know the performance of your plane and the other fellow's.

Versus the La7 and George your problem is that those planes are pretty fast, and they can accellerate very well.  This give you two problems in an E fighter like the D9.  The first problem is that they can gain E very very quickly, which means that your energy advantage gets lost more quickly than it does versus other planes.  The second problem is that these planes often dive well, especially in the early part of a dive, which can make it very difficult to escape from them.  Actually there is also a third problem... both can hang on their prop pretty well and shoot up at you when you are using vertical moves.  These are not unbeatable planes by any means... you just have to adjust to compensate for their strengths when fighting them.  It means you need a greater E advantage to take them on, and you have less passes to do it in.  You have to bug out sooner and with more speed than against most others in order to escape.  You also have to have more vertical separation to be safely out of range of their guns if they decide to zoom to you and try for a shot.  You don't want to try and rope-a-dope these guys, they are too good going up.

The dora has all the tools a good E fighter needs.  Good speed, good accelleration, good roll, great initial turn rate, decent guns.  When I say E fighter... I don't mean BnZ, I mean a real dogfight where you don't extend beyond D1.2 or so and mostly are much closer.  Flown right, the D9 can dominate... even in a dogfight.  It takes great skill to dogfight an E fighter, but that's why I love flying my Jug so much.    I think the D9 presents a similar challenge, and will provide you with similar rewards as you learn to master Dora's abilities.

[R4M]

Originally posted by Lephturn:
To be honest, the D9's turning ability is pretty much irrelevent. If you have to rely on that, you are screwed anyway. That's like relying on the Zeke's speed and toughness to get you out of trouble.

Sorry Lephturn but I can't agree, or at least only agree if you mean turning at low speed  .

 The FW190's turn IS important for certain moments. At high speeds a 190 will turn inside a spitfire with ease, using its higher corner speed. You can turn a 190A5 or D9 until you are at 230mph aprox. from there onwards is time to think in disengaging.

Many people tells me that I turn my 190 very well. Hell, no, I just turn it at the speeds it must be turned at  .

[AcId]

Flew the D9 yesterday a couple sorties...Fast, and it does have a good initial turn rate at high speed after that it's time to climb and set up the target for another run....Have to be very close for the guns too...deflection is a very low percentage shot in this plane, your likely shooting at a plane out of vis under the nose, it's a "guess shot". Big advantage is E retention....need to be very patient in the D9.

Had some fun with GTR in his CHOG   best fight(s) I've had in a while....<S!> GTR


another thing to note....It may just be me but I find it handles better if you drain off most of the AFT fuel first. I usually leave about a quarter tank left and go back to auto-manage.

[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: AcId ]

[MANDOBLE]

Urchin, if you find a La7 at low level, you are done, no matter what you do, the La7 will do it much better than D9.

This is true also at medium alts, but this time you have the chance to "elevate" the combat. Once you pass the 20k barrier, the advatange of La7 will be compensated quickly and at 25K the La7 will be in serious problems against the D9.

[milnko]

I've had some small success with the Dora this tour, although I haven't been online as much as I'd like.  

Milenko has 39 kills and has been killed 9 times in the Fw 190D-9.  

Just think how much better that score would be if I had more skill than luck  

[Spatula]

From what i can tell after spending some time at the stick of a dora, is that its faster than both the n1k (easily) and the la7 (only slightly at low alts, but more at higher 10k +) at all altitudes.

If you dont have the E to start with, make the n1k chase you for a bit, he will prolly expend his E advantage trying to catch you, and then wittle it away trying to dive to catch you. make him chase ya for a bit wasting his E. then slowly climb (5 deg) to a 2k advantage or so, level to re-build top speed, and reverse (hi-yoyo) carefully (sep needs to be over 3.0 to do this right) and dive back at him, this time you will have the E    

As for La7s, keep the fight above 10k, dont be tempted to follow them low, you *will* die...

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Spatula ]

[Lephturn]

Good point RAM.    Yes, when I say "turning" I mean sustained turns, particularly at low speed.

The Dora, like most good E fighters, has a very good initial turn rate, and a good high speed turn.  What it does is bleed energy very quickly in a turn, so you can only afford to turn it for more than 90 degrees if you have enough extra energy to give up versus your opponent.  This can be very helpful if you actually have a too much speed, and need to dump some to get your closure down to a manageable level.  It means you can often follow an opponents break move for a shot in an attack.  It also means that when you are in position, you can turn very well for a short time if you have some speed and energy advantage over your opponent.  It's a gamble all E fighters make regularly... do I burn my E advantage to get this shot?  The Dora is certainly capable in this regard, but one must always be mindful of the E penalty you pay.  Don't miss that shot!  

[Urchin]

I really, really like this plane.  So far I'm 28 and 12 in it- but at least 3 of my deaths were from augering in and giving someone a proc kill (and those are just the 3 that I remember lol).

I'm actually having some real success in this plane.  One thing I've noticed is that (like the 190A8) it will stall if you try to do a really hard break turn at 300 mph or slower.  Above that it turns very nicely, you just slow down real fast.  

What I've been doing if someone gets on my tail is either diving to the deck while doing some evasive manuevers (if it is more than 1 guy)- or the "rolling reversal".  I'm not sure if it is REALLY a rolling reversal, but I generally pull hard to one side for a second or two, then do a pretty wide barrel roll.  It seems to work very very well (I got a Spit with it tonight).  Another move I use on less manueverable planes (like the 190, p51, 109) is a hard break turn up and to the right, and when they get within 500 yards or so I roll 180 and pull back down and to the left.  This also seems to work very well.  Both moves I use also in the 190A8, they also work well in that plane.

The firepower in the Dora seems to be VERY good.  I took down a Ki-61 with a fairly long burst of just MG fire (I was out of cannon).  Took about a 2 second burst but it blew his wing off.  Maybe it is just me, but it actually seems like the 20mm cannons in the Dora have a FLATTER trajectory than the ones in the 190A8- I hit an la7 that was flying straight and level at d550.  I was pretty much praying and praying, but the rounds actually landed and took his wing off.

I feel like it is a damn shame that I like this most "dweeby" ride of the Germans- but man- this plane is hands down the most capable 190, at least in my opinion.  As ad added bonus, I can chase down those pesky runstangs if they try to get away from me in a dive- thats pretty tough to do in a 109.

Also- I'm having GREAT luck in this plane against the N1K2- so far this tour I'm 8 and 1 against them.. And all my kills are in the 190D9, the Ta152, and the 109G2.  I'm 4 and 1 vs them in the Dora.  Maybe it is just my month to have good luck against those planes, normally they give me fits.

[Urchin]

One thing I've also noticed today is that you have to be very careful when you are in multi-plane furballs.  I let a spit get within 400 yards of my 6 twice today, both time I tried to dive away from him, and both times I got my bellybutton shot off.  

Does the D9 not dive as quickly as the Spit or N1K2 in the beginning of a dive?  I assumed that it would, since it is heavier, but it doesn't seem to.  The good news is unless you are stupid like me and let them get close, it seems like you can get away from them after about 5-6 seconds of diving.

[Lephturn]

The Spit and George won't "out dive" you in the long term, but they both accellerate very well, especially from low speed.  This is your danger zone.  Once you crank past 350 or so, your going to check out on them in the dive, but up until that point, they may gain on you, especially the George.

Keep your speed up nice and high in a multi-plane environment.  Remember that your diving abilities don't really kick in until the higher speeds, so try to keep more separation at lower speeds to give yourself room to wind that puppy up to escape velocity.  Also, if you are trying to dive and escape, use a 0G dive.  That is, hit the WEP and push the stick forward so that your G meter sits around 0.  Hold it there until you are either in a quite steep dive, or are at high enough speed that you are safe.  By holding at 0G's, you remove the induced drag the airframe creates by generating lift (well some of it) so the Dora's great power/drag ratio can really go to work.  You'll be surprised how fast you can get up to high speed using this method.

[Urchin]

Oh, so thats what a "zero G" dive is!  I always thought it was supposed to read "1 G"- because that meant you weren't pulling any G's (hence the Zero G)- lol, that will probably help a LOT.  Thanks!

[Lephturn]

You don't know what a fast dive is until you've held a constant 0G's in a P-47. <G>  Hellcats do a hell of a 0G dive too.  If you remember to use a 0G dive to accellerate to high speed, you can often catch similar planes that don't use them.  Be sure to be mindful of your dive angle though, and don't 0G dive any more than necessary.  I usually 0G dive until either the angle is too steep, or I'm at a safe speed given the situation.  Always remember that geometry works.... so if you are too low when you do this and end up with a steep dive and have to pull out hard due to being near ground, you may be caught by somebody that uses a shallower dive to fly a shorter distance and avoids the higher G pullout on the bottom.

A good rule of thumb is to leave enough air below you that you can 0G dive to "insane speed" and still pull out gently at the bottom.  In a good diver like the Hellcat,  you can even escape from "faster" planes with careful use of this technique.  Sure, they'll eventually catch you, but by the time they do you can reach a friendly base or some wingmen to get you out of trouble.  

Practice this a bit so you are ready for it.  In a fast ride like the Dora a 0 G dive will get you to warp 9 in a hurry, so try it first so you can estimate how much altitude you need to get to the speed you want to acheive.  In the Jug I just know that if I'm over about 5k, I can 0G dive to a high enough speed that there are very few planes which can follow me and still keep their wings.    In addition, I've gotten maneuver kills by pulling out low when the guy in the other plane finds out he can't pull out at that speed.