Author Topic: 190A-8 and 190F-8 ... identical performance??  (Read 1474 times)

Offline Crumpp

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190A-8 and 190F-8 ... identical performance??
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2004, 08:06:38 AM »
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Later F-8's with out the added cockpit armor where not just fighters with an F-8 designation.


Good Post Wotan.

Do you have documentation directing the factory to remove the side armour?

I have documentation saying the armour was left exactly as the FW-190F3 throughout the FW-190F series.  They all say it:

Armour as per FW-190F3.

You have pilot anecdotes that some of the F8's had the side armour removed.  I have anecdotes that the F8 pilot loved the side armour.

Serious question:
What sense does it make for the factory to remove the side armour in a dedicated ground attack platform?

I don't think there is an "early production vs. late production" according to the Luftwaffe.

As for the claim of "F8 in name only".  It was clear in my post that this is a speculation and I tend to agree with you Wotan on this.  Since I don't discount pilot anecdotes this seemed the best explanation given the shortage of fighters and your evidence.  

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Crumpp says:
It is very possible that some of the new built FW-190F8's late war were made to A8 standard.


Until documentation surfaces showing otherwise, the whole "early/late" F8 production looks like an Internet revision of History to me.

Now for Milo's tantrum:  

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Milo says:
 I never said it was not removable.


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Milo says:
2. I never said it had to stay in the a/c.




BS.  You even quoted the Luftwaffe technical description ordering the 115 liter tank to be included with the delivery of the aircraft as proof it was not removable!!

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Milo says:
Crumpp, if you were not so pig headed, you would have noticed that Technical Desription No 284 is dated Nov 1944 while your D.(Luft) T. 2190 A-7 bis A-9 is dated Stand, Marz June 1944, Ausgabe, Juni 1944. The TD 284 is in the D.(Luft) T. 2190 A-8, dated Effective July 1944, Issued Sept 1944.


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/defaultframe.html

 
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Milo says:
The Fw TD 284 of Nov 44 lists the aux tank, not as an option, but as a standard fit. Do you see any 190s with the /R5? This is the R for the aux tank.


Then when Butch2K chimed in:

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Butch2K says:
The tank was absolutly not optional and could not be removed after being installed. As a matter of fact i own the factory drawings covering the additions of this tank to an aircraft while on the construction line.


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Then Milo says:

Glad to see that you say the aux tank is not removable in the Ta152. That section of fuselage is the same as on the Fw190As and Ds.


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/defaultframe.html

So there we have it.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 20, 2004, 10:20:52 AM by Crumpp »

Offline Crumpp

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190A-8 and 190F-8 ... identical performance??
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2004, 08:20:34 AM »
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What would be hard about it Milo? Compared to say..Changing an engine? Or removing the main fuel tanks? Both are basic maintenance task's.


Because you did not read this sentence earlier in the thread, Milo.


You launched off on a side tangent because of your confusion at any further reference to other much more difficult maintenance tasks the Luftwaffe Geschwader routinely performed.

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"They take the fuel tanks out at the Geschwader." .... snip ...... "It would not be that hard to remove the armour."

Why did you mention fuel tanks and then side armour in the same statement? Was fuel tanks part of the discussion about the side armour?

Wotan is very clear in what he says, unlike you, who meanders all over the place.


If you would read what people post it would eliminate this kind of confusion.

Crumpp

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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190A-8 and 190F-8 ... identical performance??
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2004, 09:29:45 AM »
Just an observation, from someone who has no stake in this argument.........

In the time I have spent reading posts on this board, under this name and under others, I have had the opportunity to read many posts from both Crumpp and Wotan on many issues.  Several FW 190 threads have come and gone, and I always find both of them to be knowledgable and polite, and almost always have references to back up what they have to say.  

I never saw that Crumpp really disagreed with Wotan's post, he merely asked for something more than pilot statements to back it up.  A pilot writing that the factory made a change to a series of planes (in this case the F-8 variant), and actual factory specifications stating a change was made are two very different things.  I think that is all Crumpp was trying to say.

As for Milo, you need medication.  You confused posts from different people, exagerrated statements and then denied responsibility when people were led to obvious conclusions of what you meant to say, resorted to name calling and character attacks when your opponent remained calm and polite, and as a topper have not quoted even one source to back up your statements.  

I will not say I have never disagreed with a statement Crumpp has posted about the FW 190.  However, I admit that the majority of my "knowledge" is secondhand, and questionable in its origins, while Crumpp almost always has data to back up his statements, often from more than one source.  I respect that he takes the time to look up those sources and put them in his post.

Milo, perhaps you should re-read all the posts in this thread by both Crumpp and Wotan.  If you still havent learned anything about the topic by the end, maybe you will at least have an idea of how to act like an adult instead of a 12 year old ADD poster-child.

Offline DoctorYO

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190A-8 and 190F-8 ... identical performance??
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2004, 09:34:53 AM »
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.with the experience of 278 kills without deaths.


I remember that run of yours when you would utilize your teamates as fodder only to scoop in for the kill while the enemy was fixated on your pawns...  (Im going "fishu wtf are you doing engage.." only to get no response..  then i get banged on 3 to 1 while fishu comes in scoop them up..  BTW i survived but a harrowing experience to say the least..) (and note i wasn't looking for him to suicide himself just take a damn swipe at them.. but no...  Ill wait until teamate is in trouble then proceed to attack as your SOP... muahaha"

I was there and I say false advertisement....   Still a good run.. but with fodder lemmings and limited plane set back then..  I would equate it to some of the old NFL records and the new league parity we have in the MA with la7 galore...

190 or any other plane can be used with great effect with lemming shield around it..

2 cents


DoctorYo


PS and you thought we might forget this.....

"Nevar forget....."



:aok
« Last Edit: December 20, 2004, 09:38:02 AM by DoctorYO »

Offline Crumpp

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190A-8 and 190F-8 ... identical performance??
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2004, 12:25:03 PM »
Just to confirm about the 115 liter tank being removed.  Not only have I read the Flugzueg-Hanbuch instructions, interviewed pilots and ground crew none of which do mention having to remove the O2 tanks but Bob, our structure man, did not remember having to move them either.  This conversation took place months ago and to confirm I asked Dr Timken again.  Dr. Timken is a really great guy and I encourage anyone interested in the FW-190 to join the Foundation.

The O2 Tanks did not interfere with the removal of either tank at all.  

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I said it does not mention having to remove them in the Flugzeug-handbuch and the guys who removed the tank at White 1 do not remember having to remove them either.


Here is Dr Timken's answer:

============================

Well, you ask tough questions....
We have the tank and mounts. They are easy to remove. The tank is held in a halter with a typical German style steel strap...same as battery. These can be loosened in minutes.
The top has one screw on electric connection for fuel pump and I believe two hose connections. Another 10 minutes. Bottom Hatch on fuse ...a few minutes.
The O2 bottles seem pretty tucked in out of the way on the sides. I do not believe they would interfere at all. A vertical line from the edge of the fuselage opening would come nowhere near the bottles, or lines.
All the best,
Mark
============================

So consider this matter laid to rest.  I have asked Milo to join the Foundation on numerous occasions so he could get answers to some of the "tough" questions on the FW-190.  I have to wonder from his behavior if we would not be better without him.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 20, 2004, 12:42:18 PM by Crumpp »