Enemies Attack Angle

[Clifra Jones]

This has happened to me several times and I guess I'm just not seeing things correctly.

When merging with a higher bogie I turn into him and from my point of view his nose is not anywhere near a guns on solution yet he fires and scores a ping on my AC. Most often hitting the engine or canopy.

Am I just not seeing the enemy AC correctly or are they doing a quick rudder skid to bring the nose on target?

As I said happens mostly while merging with a higher bogie as we turn into each other.

I shot some films last night. I'll review them tonight.

[fuzeman]

The normal amount of netlag 'might' be involved. Remember, he is actually slightly ahead of where he looks to be on your FE, Front End- the part of AH running on your computer. He could also be using some rudder to get his guns on you. Guns will follow the direction the nose of your plane is pointing opposed to bombs or rockets which follow the flight path your on. That's why you can use rudder to tweak your guns solution but should not use it for any divebombing or rocket attacks.
Check the film as you mentioned you would and hop into their plane to see whats up.

[bozon]

It took me a long time and considerable frustration to lean that. Planes are supposed to be pointing ahead of you when shooting not directly at you or even behind you. If you are in a turn and looking down his gun barrels he is not supposed to hit you.

Although not nearly as severe as it used to be, netlag causes the other plane to be seen on your end a split second delayed from what it looks on the other guys end.

So, if he's pulling a hard turn, he's actually a few degrees ahead on his machine. If he 'jinks' the nose for the shot, you will most likely not see it on your end.

it's something one needs to learn to live with. But I would also check the net status to be sure the connection is smooth and ping times are below 300ms.

Bozon

[Clifra Jones]

Thanks, makes sense.

Hadn't thought of jumping into his plane as seeing what he sees.

I'll remember that. Sounds like a great learning tool.

[debuman]

I've often noticed the folowing:

You are merging with a plane head to head.  He appears to be going under/over you, and turning into the attack at the same time.  You see his tracers, but they appear to be passing a couple hundred yards behind you.  Suddenly, you hear hits on your a/c, even though according to the visual path of the tracers, there is no way they are hitting you.....

I've always just assumed it had something to do with lag.

[Howitzer]

I've noticed that you need to start your bank a little sooner do to the 'net lag' problem that they were mentioning.  Also, you have to remember in your scenario, he is higher than you are, so he is getting a full view of your plane, including the cockpit, which wouldn't be the case if he were directly on your 6, and just able to see the back of the plane which is a much smaller target.  

You didn't mention though if he was coming straight down on you or coming in from a high angle.  It does make a little bit of a difference.  If he is coming in from high left, my next move is to bank left to cut down his angle.  But, if he is coming straight down and you bank left, if you don't do it early enough, he'll be more apt to correct his angle and be presented with an adequate snap shot.

Hope this helps you.  

[Darkish]

Ahhh: Netlag

Often used as an excuse for not understanding the angles, but, untfortunately it does indeed exist.

Your front end is doing its best to extrapolate and predict the next move of the con, unfortunately things get wierd when the con goes unpredicatable (read stick stiring).  On the whole, and the merege is included in this, smooth inputs are easily delt with.  One must understand however, that the guy you're fighting on your front end will be seeing something slighty different on his.
...Hell, the other night I saw a jug put rockets into a cv 2 miles from where I saw, and others, it to be: not until, "CV's been hit, dar's dead" did it twig that as far as he was concerned, rockets went in on target.

On gut instinct, I'd say your what you saw was a combination of a bit of net lag (High closure rate) and not realising the amount of lead (as in bit of string, not the metal) he required for a guns solution.  To me it sounds like a high angle shot, verging on snap, and if his guns were pointing at your cockpit he would surely have missed

[mechanic]

following up these posts and to explain Darkish's point on lead, i have drawn up a little estimational graph to explain how this could happen, not considering net lag.

please study this rudementary diagram i drew in paint

this is taken with a convergence setting of 300 yrds

the weapon cones are far more spread out than it really is but take into account shakes and control twitches and i think it shows an acurate depiction of possible bullet spreads.



essentially, the vast majority of planes have fixed guns which do NOT correspond with the planes angle of attack. the majority of cockpit views give a 10-15 degree elevation for the pilot's line of sight.

put simply, the plane fires above its ture course through the air.

if you also take into consideration the effect of a hard turn or climb/dive, the effects will include gravity, centrifugal force (sp?) and bullet drop.

So, a plane that is not pointing directly at you, can still hit you if all these factors are taken into consideration.

as the range increases above 200yrds, these weapon cones become more effected and less definite.

Now consider a pilot that is pulling back hard on the stick at the same time as opening fire


the weapons cone is drastically changed, meaning the bullet can hit you when the enemy plane is pointing way off.

Now also consider a plane that is pushing hard forward on the stick at the same time as shooting.



a lucky/skilled hit can often be put down to net lag, although it is most likely one hasnt estimated the enemy's line of sight as acurately as possible.

Note: these picture do not show weapon cone in a dive/climb, but actauly as the pilot pulls the stick and changes the a/c's center of gravity and AOA through the air.

these rough diagrams do not cover the equally improtant lateral forces that can be applied, but the rule works the same for any direction.

a skilled marksman will be able to judge these angles from 600-800 yrds, and this can cause alot of confusion to the opponent, who cannot concieve how the bullets hit him.

this aside, there is also the net lag issue, which can greatly affect things like traces, plane possition on rare occasions.

hope this helps, and i hope i havnt swung off the mark, these thoughts are only my own, not based on any documents.

S!

batfink

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Howitzer
I've noticed that you need to start your bank a little sooner do to the 'net lag' problem that they were mentioning.  Also, you have to remember in your scenario, he is higher than you are, so he is getting a full view of your plane, including the cockpit, which wouldn't be the case if he were directly on your 6, and just able to see the back of the plane which is a much smaller target.  

You didn't mention though if he was coming straight down on you or coming in from a high angle.  It does make a little bit of a difference.  If he is coming in from high left, my next move is to bank left to cut down his angle.  But, if he is coming straight down and you bank left, if you don't do it early enough, he'll be more apt to correct his angle and be presented with an adequate snap shot.

Hope this helps you.  

I most often see this occuring from the 10 & 2 oclock position, bogie diving on me.

[Clifra Jones]

Not off the mark at all. While I'll take lag into concideration it has seemed to happen far to much to blame lag all the time.  Bullet dispersion could indeed be a factor as some of these shot are taken from outside d300.  I could very well be flying into the bullet drop zone.

[humble]

I guess I'm one of the few who doesnt feel netlag is much of an issue (98%+ of the time)...I can actually let you hit my plane and not score any damage a significant amount of the time (on initial "wag the tail" baiting)....

Personally I think your using terminology wrong...your not going to get a canopy shot on a true merge unless the con has used a A+ merge (significant vertical and lateral speration combined with an aggresive early lead turn. More than likely your in a defensive position and dont realize it and are a bit late in responding to his attack...when you "see" the con at ~800 he's at 500-700 depending on the difference in your connection...thats the lag everyones talking about...since its pretty constant you learn to "time it" pretty easily and unless its out of the norm it becomes unnoticable. If you want to email a clip or two I'll look at them and post them to the bbs with my thoughts...that way others can take a look and give you their 2 cents...

The other possibility is speed differential...if your carrying to much E into the merge and the other guy is at optimal speed he'll get around on you much much faster....however thats not a shot on the "merge"...its a shot on the "remerge" that occurs as both of you complete your vertical lead turn...

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
I most often see this occuring from the 10 & 2 oclock position, bogie diving on me.

are you watching the nose and the direction it is pointed when the enemy is diving in on you?  You can tell when he has the prefered  angle of attack or if he is in lag, depending on where his nose is pointed in relation to your plane,  if you can see where his nose is pointing then you are 1/2 way there to evading his attack.......... if he is diving in an upright position you can nose over and make him push neg G's to red out / possibly throwing in a little turn/bank as well. If he is diving in inverted and seems to be lined up you can either chop throttle if he is fast and pull hard to tighten the arc or if he is slow and inverted, try pulling momentarily  then rolling out hard..to force an overshoot


a film would really help show us what you are encountering........ I tryed to find a film of someone diving in on me from these angles and took some snap shots of them , hope Humble can post them.......if he has time.........

[humble]

http://www.azhacker.com/images/SA8.jpg
http://www.azhacker.com/images/SA9.gif

for some reason ones a jpg and the other a gif...think you sent me both....

[humble]

[humble]