Author Topic: A matter of perspective..... (Read 4011 times)

kj714 · « **Reply #45 on:** December 28, 2004, 04:50:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shane
the rest of you read this, paying particular attention to the bold italics, then re-read it. ask for help understanding it if need be.

ohh, ohhh, Mr. Kotter! Mr. Kotter!

So it's not YOU are a donut, it's you FLY like a donut.

But, given the above, how much is the overall effect of derision diluted when effective flying leading to a successful kill is derided as well as poor tactics?

Urchin · « **Reply #46 on:** December 28, 2004, 04:52:16 PM »

No, in my opinion derision doesn't work well as a tool to modify behaviour. The dip**** in question simply assumes you are a "sore loser" and "mad 'cause U died", I assume because that is as much as their mind can grasp.

detch01 · « **Reply #47 on:** December 28, 2004, 04:59:03 PM »

The don't lose if you're gonna deride

Redd · « **Reply #48 on:** December 28, 2004, 05:46:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by kj714
So, to be clear to us non-AW'ers, what was the specifics of the AW code of conduct that is being discussed?

Anybody?

Ok I'll bite.

I never flew AW , but was around in the early days of WB and it seems to me if there was a the gameplay style/ code of conduct it included these things

2 on 1 is plenty

Flying against the numbers is preferable to flying with the numbers.

HO's are not ACM

Respect your opponents, victor or vanquished. Die gracefully and quietly. Win the same way.

Dying teaches you more than running

Vulching is OK and fun occasionally, but not every sortie

Camping is something boy scouts do

The fight is the thing !

Of course there were no GV's and ships guns and things like that, people generally focussed on ACM and Air Combat and tried to get better at it.

You played to seek out a good fight , not create a one-sided slaughter.

Maybe it's all the distractions these days and the scoring system that have changed things so much

or maybe I'm just remembering through rose-colored glasses because it was all new and fun

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #49 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:12:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Redd
Ok I'll bite.

I never flew AW , but was around in the early days of WB and it seems to me if there was a the gameplay style/ code of conduct it included these things

2 on 1 is plenty

Flying against the numbers is preferable to flying with the numbers.

HO's are not ACM

Respect your opponents, victor or vanquished. Die gracefully and quietly. Win the same way.

Dying teaches you more than running

Vulching is OK and fun occasionally, but not every sortie

Camping is something boy scouts do

The fight is the thing !

Of course there were no GV's and ships guns and things like that, people generally focussed on ACM and Air Combat and tried to get better at it.

You played to seek out a good fight , not create a one-sided slaughter.

Maybe it's all the distractions these days and the scoring system that have changed things so much

or maybe I'm just remembering through rose-colored glasses because it was all new and fun

Pretty much nailed it on the head.

ack-ack

Urchin · « **Reply #50 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:14:42 PM »

Well, in my opinion it goes a little deeper than just A2A, people don't want to take the time to actually become good at anything.

For example, we've got a Hurricane 2D.. it can pop the turrets on Panzers and Tigers in one hit. Practically nobody uses it. Why? Its to "hard". Much easier to grab a flight of Lancs, climb to 500 feet, and drop 42 1,000 lb bombs on one Panzer.

Idiotic, but they "win".

guttboy · « **Reply #51 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:30:41 PM »

Hey Urchin....

Id love to take you up on the Hurri for the popping of panzers and tigers in one hit....any chance of you showing me how that is done?

Regards,

TG12:)

humble · « **Reply #52 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:40:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mechanic
i hope you are not so set in your ways as to ignore the new comers who do understand and follow the code.

that would make you equal to the 'dirt movers' in my opinion, except add old and moody to that...

ive been online flight simming for 1.5 years, so i cannot possibly know what honour and sportsmanship are, er, ok, i get ya .

Wow.....

Didnt really expect this to have any legs....it really was ment to clear the air on the other thread if anything I posted was taken the wrong way....however a bunch of interesting comments.

mechanic....

I'm sure there are alot of guys like you out there buried amongst the gaggle...and yes I guess I'm old and grochity:)

....

humble · « **Reply #53 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:42:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by detch01
Most of you who posted here are the generation before me in AW - I didn't show up until June of 97 in the game. Even then I saw there some of what we see here now. The difference there was that there was an active training corps to pass it down the line. I got some of it and am glad I did - it makes this game so much better.
When I converted over to AH I got caught a couple of times in the nostalgia rut and spent my time complaining about the current crop of players. Time that I wasted in the game. I'm going to spend more time in the TA - I don't know much but maybe what I do know I can pass down the line to pay back those that taught me. It's a start.

Cheers,
asw

Great....

As one of the original crew of AH trainers my hats off to any and all who take time to help others along....

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #54 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:48:55 PM »

The old AW ethic also is a byproduct of the way the game grew back then. It was a small town compared to AH which is more like a big city. There were fewer people, everyone knew each other (i.e. you saw everyone's playerID in flight), and maps were miniscule compared to what we have now. So being cast as a banana by the Village Elders wasn't something you lived down easily (The Pangloss Principle). This kind of made people hold up a higher standard of behavior, and take a little more pride in their skill. Competition for top fighter and squadron was fierce back then - hell, we used to keep track of who the biggest bail-out artist was.

And, because the game (and the whole genre) was new (and paaaainful to play), there was a closer connection to the game and the era it represented. You really had to love WW2 aircraft to put up with everything that was wrong with AW and GEnie.

I also think there are two definitions of "respect" at work here. One is the "In Your Face" kind of respect - the modern interpretation - whereby racking up a big score (regardless of how or how fast) will mean you deserve respect. And I think many people coming from other, more Doom-esque, venues operate under that mentality.

The definition we grew up with in AW was more old world. Respect came with time spent and deeds done (and "deeds" means more than porking barracks 100 flights in a row). Respect was earned, not deserved. It meant something to have a 5+ year veteran player invite you into his squad. We didn't confuse "skillful" with "successful" quite like happens in AH today.

Trash-talk is fine as long as both sides of the conversation realize that's what it is. It must be understood also that for many people flying AH is an escape. Once you get to know your fellow flyers you will find that many have some pretty heavy stuff in their real lives. Bear that in mind before you say anything derisive.

humble · « **Reply #55 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:49:32 PM »

I dont mean this as a flame of you or any vet inperticular. But many vets, in any game, tend to sit on a very high horse and dont reach down to take up a new guy to join em in the sadle. They keep lookin down, swearing and whining about how things where better in the good old days.

This was ment as a reply to a specific "respect" type question....I thought my harshness required some explanation. If someone created a 2nd "Nomad" squad I'd laugh at em....thats a badge thats earned over time by gaining respect....not something you just pin on yourself. Now when someone "complains" about someone else taking "their" squad name....well if the "original" squad is just a bunch of noobs...well who cares?. How, Why did the earn any right to excusivity compared to Ack Acks squad with years of time and earned respect from the community at large....

Again just my 2 cents.....

BTW I agree with you completely on comments above....but many of the vets DO try and make a contribuation....we're there if folks want to learn....

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #56 on:** December 28, 2004, 07:03:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo

It meant something to have a 5+ year veteran player invite you into his squad. We didn't confuse "skillful" with "successful" quite like happens in AH today.

I felt like I had finally arrived when I was invited to join the 479th FG back in '97 after tooling around for 4 years in the Lightning. Too be invited into a squadron that was known for their prowess in the P-38 and to fly with guys like Pharo, Ballz, REEMO, Noamo and the rest of the Raiders was a true honor for me.

ack-ack

NoBaddy · « **Reply #57 on:** December 28, 2004, 07:10:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Trash-talk is fine as long as both sides of the conversation realize that's what it is. It must be understood also that for many people flying AH is an escape. Once you get to know your fellow flyers you will find that many have some pretty heavy stuff in their real lives. Bear that in mind before you say anything derisive.

Well said Dok...

As I remember, 'trash' talk was generally confined to the game and rarely got personal, at least it was that way until the coming of the "10,000 Dweebs". No monitors...no Game Ops, the 'community' was capable of policing its self in all but the worst cases. Heck, in those days, the best friends I had, outside my squadmates, were my 'enemies'.

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #58 on:** December 28, 2004, 07:33:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by NoBaddy
Well said Dok...

As I remember, 'trash' talk was generally confined to the game and rarely got personal, at least it was that way until the coming of the "10,000 Dweebs". No monitors...no Game Ops, the 'community' was capable of policing its self in all but the worst cases. Heck, in those days, the best friends I had, outside my squadmates, were my 'enemies'.

Hehe ... just about everyone I recruited into the 4Q was someone with whom I exchanged deaths with very often. It eventually came down to "either we can keep shooting each other down all the time, or we can fly together."

Guppy35 · « **Reply #59 on:** December 28, 2004, 08:07:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Hehe ... just about everyone I recruited into the 4Q was someone with whom I exchanged deaths with very often. It eventually came down to "either we can keep shooting each other down all the time, or we can fly together."

Guess I don't feel so bad about the origins of the Nomads then

It was made up of 38 drivers who'd been shooting each other down over and over. That friendly rivalry and the 'respect' folks had for each other made it easy to do. Of course being able to have a shades squad like we did to start, didn't hurt either.

The old "Lets meet at 10K over the river near 84 and have at it, doesn't happen in here with all the extra bodies.

That being said, I'm still having fun. No complaints from me

Dan/Slack