Question for you 38 drivers.....

[humble]

I loaded up a 38 and after dropping my ord (10xrockets and 2x50lber's) cruised on over to a rook/knight scrap. I came in about 17k or so...4-5 rooks under me and a rook spit and 26 over (22k or so)...the spit rolled in as I perused my options below...I rev into his attack and extended out a bit at 12k or so...climbed and rev back at 14 or so and maybe 300 leveled and trimmed...he was now 17 or so...decided to accept the merge IF he didn't go hi...he didn't so I reversed into his pass..he had to much e for a snap shot so we remerged with him now 700-800 over me..i avoided and rev again...now the question...I decided to chop and see if i could get nose around before he could ...I lost   ...could i have zoomed him on the 2nd or 3rd "merge"...on the 2nd i'm pretty sure he'd easily of hosed me...but on the 3rd i'm not so sure...my other question is if I had left throttle wide open and dove for his 6 as he came back up to my rev...
1) will 38 accelerate quick enough to avoid canopy shot as his nose falls thru?
2) would 38 out zoom spit9 in that situation.

sorry if I haven't laid it out well enough numbers wise, hope it's descriptive enough to paint reasonable picture of events.


hmmm, read my post..let me clarify...these were vertical moves with him attacking high to low and going under my rev...but his E man was ok...so he was zooming back up and over out of guns range...not the way i'd fly or teach it...but given the E states...plane types and result I can't argue it. My real question is on that 3rd pass is the 38 actually close enough to co-e for a spiral climb or such to eek out the high ground..also curious if rocket/bomb mounts effect E after ord gone in 38.

[This message has been edited by humble (edited 05-16-2000).]

[Spatula]

Im not really the expert in a 38 allthough i do give it a good run from time to time. Citabria is THE jedi master when it comes to 38 drivin.

My way of looking at that situation (and im sure some will disagree) but, at all points the spit had superior E than you, and even in a dead even E match against a spit 9 you really have a fight on your hands.
In my book, your mistake was not to extend and come back with superior E (AKA run like toejam).
Bait him to chase you down then level off at 8k or so and go level for a bit and keep speed, spit is slower, and hopefully he is now level with you, with your extra speed you should at about D 3.0 or so just be able to WEP and zoom up, hammerhead over and catch the spit slow and trying to come up with ya (spit hopefully stalling) if ya cant do that you should at least come out on top of the E stakes. But this would be a close one.

Spat.

[humble]

No question the spit had E on me...I had control of the whole fight however. Had he gone up on the "merge" my only option was what you mentioned...once he took shot and went under me I had options...i'm curious if he wasted enough E during fight for me to switch from angles to E mid stream...i just don't know the 38 well enough...Personally I think the 38 is a dog...but citabria proves otherwise everyday .

[CavemanJ]

unless you start with a major E advantage against a spit you are out numbered.  I've fought and won against many spits, both IX's and V's.  On the other hand, I've also had me arse handed to me by spits when I've flown stupidly.

The only times a P38 controls the fight against a spit is a) total novice spit driver who's still figuring the bird out; b) you start with 5k or more alt and can stay at 400-450mph and use the P38s zoom to stay well above him.

Either spit can outclimb the 38 at any time.  If the spit is co-alt or higher run away, you're surrounded.

[humble]

Thats my question Cave...is there a way to win that encounter...I could easily have extended...or not turned to re-engage. The 38 has enough potential E to get out of dodge once the spitty goes "low and away"...i'd say the spit driver was a "tweener"...not a novice and certainly not yet an "expert". Even off the gas the 38 was to slow around so I'll scratch that one off my list..I'd rather push the fight than run if i have a glimmer of hope...just can't visualize any real winner there...cept going high and hoping to top him out..my guess is I'd be hanging in gun range a little to long before he fell off.

[Citabria]

you can win it but the spit has to screw up

[CavemanJ]

Cit, as a 38 driver meself, I'd love to hear an analytical discussion from you about do's and don't's in this situation.

[Vermillion]

I'm not a 38 driver, but I think I would have gotten out of Dodge, and then waited till you had an E advantage or the Spit pilot got distracted.

Admittedly I am not a fan of 1 v 1 co-alt type fights at any time, but especially against Spitfires.  I find it a crap shoot (50/50 proposition).

The plane is just that good, in that kind of fight.

Depending on what kind of fuel load you were carrying, I would have drug him around like a kite on a string, so that you could set him up for a friend, or if he was really dumb run him outta fuel then bounce him (its suprising how often this works   ).

Of course I am the typically Pony driver. I use the careful hunt and ambush style, and take my time setting up the con. But admittedly alot of people find this boring.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Citabria]

"I heard jedi's can't be killed"-anakin skywalker
"I only wish that were true"-QuiGonJin

I guess you could say if the jedi is the p-38...
then the spitfire is darth maul with a two sided lightsaber.

basically 1v1 and darth maul is above you you better have some trick up your sleave and do some of that pilot toejam and cut him in half when he dosnt expect it.

he can out zoom you, out turn you out climb you and has a higher critical mach number and does everything better and has more E in this situation. It's pretty much mandatory that you either do somthing out of the ordinary they do not expect in order to bag them  

[humble]

At the time my feel was his tactics somewhat nuetralized the advantages he had in E and plane type...I was able to "control" the fight for a few turns based on his choice of tactics...twice I was in what i would call a tactically superior position ( at the top of both reverses )...but seemed unable to capitalize...now my question is really is this inability inherant in the plane..or is the primary failing with the pilot...given the specific circumstances...i.e. could citabria..the jedi master..have waxed the spit..if so how?.

Obi-wan...wasn't talking to me  ...so far sounds like he'd be saying wep your prettythang out of dodge  

[CavemanJ]

I thought the 38 had the higher critical mach number (where the controls are too heavy to be effective correct?)

Been several times a dive from a spit, with him following closely (spray and pray in effect :\ ) and resulted in him turning into a lawndart with me cutting up sheep with the props  

[Westy]

When I see a higher or coalt Spit (at D6 or so) I drop nose to a 2k rate of decent and WEP it for instant E build. Then level quickly at the merge and look back if he goes up I keep going - get the hell out of Dodge - unless I know for surte my E is much greater then I'll wait a moment and go vertical myself.  If he does anything else I zoom up and gain the upper hand. fF there is more than one Spit you're toast. Otherwise it is the only AH plane I fear when I see them coalt or higher while flying a P-38. Well maybe the "Niki" too  
 Then again.. I die alot...  

  -Westy

[Citabria]

well I guess if you've neutralized the e advantage and youve gained an edge you probably have 1 or 2 snapshots which you have to cripple them or destroy them.

I guess if on a good day I found a way to control the nose of the p38 at 120mph and managed a solid hit and crippled or destroyed them I would win, but if I screwed up then I would die pretty easily.

cavemanj I guess I meant the maximum speed in AH where the plane starts to loose elevators wingtips and ailerons.

for the p38 this is at most 550mph while I'm certain the spitfires is much higher.

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-17-2000).]

[Lephturn]

Even though you had the upper hand tactically a couple of times, the Spits hold E VERY well, so a Spit can do that and still hold the E card longer than most planes.

My take... force the HO is your only option if you don't run.  You better win too, those Spit guns are deadly.  I'd run. <G>

BTW, I've read that the Spit had the highest critical mach of any WWII prop fighter in the war, P51 included.  It's critical mach was certainly higher than the P38's, which needed dive flaps to save it from deadly compression at fast dive speeds.  That said, I believe "critical mach" really means how fast it can go before it destroys itself, regardless of insane stick forces.    Not sure about that one though, maybe somebody can enlighten me?

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
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"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

[humble]

What happened is I forced the HO and lost...I was hoping to actually get around first...he was coming up as I was coming down of the rev...I had can to can at 1.5 or so with my nose falling thru and his coming up...even with 0% gas the 38 wasn't quick enough down and thu...i'd say he got me by a 1/10 of a sec and we traded HO with me a little late on the draw...the low speed made avoiding the HO impossible as well.

I'd say that is probably my biggest weakness in a 38...i just cant get my nose around well enough in many instances.