Author Topic: P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....  (Read 1650 times)

Offline Scot

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« on: October 30, 2001, 07:49:00 AM »
< Pulls hat down, collar is up, and adjust Sun Glasses >.

I have been reading alot of P47 D-x info lately on the boards and finally took one of the D30s up last night for a run. I have to say I really liked the ride. I focused on keeping E / speed and did very well. Being a LW Kannon jockie, the eight 50s are like laser's when you hit at convergence. I have never knocked off so many wings, and tail structures in a single sortie before.
 
One thing that became obvious to me is that this bird has a tremendous amount of potential when flown with tender loving care   :) . I'm becoming hooked on this ride.

Questions:

Fuel management: Man are there fuel tanks! I know when I fly the Dora / 190s I like to empty the Aft tank first because of the shift in the CoG. Is there any optimum order in fuel management that will give the Jug a little more oomph?

Flaps: You allies have everything! Flaps that actually deploy over 220 mph   :D . I began a BnZ run on a F6F and on my first intial pass I had the Jug shaking bolts over the Baltic and hit the dive brake. It didn't seem to help too much over 475mph and slows you down way too much under 300 mph. Are there any tips on using the flaps in combat?

Roll Rate: Where is the roll rate the most effective on the Jug. It seems to roll better than the Dora over 400mph. Is this true?

What is the best defensive when slow? I was able to out roll a Tiffie last night and scissors a shot in. But hey , it was a Tiffie   :rolleyes:

Thanks!
< looks out the door, see no one from JG2 and sneeks out   :cool: >

<S>
Scot
3./JG2

Offline Lephturn

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2001, 08:33:00 AM »
Good questions.  The P47 is my favourite ride by far, and if you have an E fighting skill set already from flying LW birds, you should do well.  There are a few things you will have to adjust to however.  First, most of the LW birds accellerate very well.  The P47 does not accellerate well at all, with the exception of diving and even then only over about 250 MPH.  There are many situations where you want to slow down quickly and then accellerate to escape in an FW, but try that in a Jug and you are going to be left wallowing at low speed and you'll die soon after.  The P47 is great at maintaining E using speed, vertical maneuvering, and by avoiding sustained high-G maneuvers.  That means using lag pursuit, barrel rolls, lag displacement rolls, and anything else you can to keep your speed high and still maintain position on your target.

Also the gun set is very different from a cannon bird.  The .50's don't hit as hard, but you have more of them, they have a very high rate of fire, and they have very good ballistics.  That means that they are easier to hit with than the cannons you are used to, but it also means they need a bit more time on target, and are more sensitive to convergence than you are used to.  You can't rely on snapshots as much as you can with cannons, and you will have to be careful to try and be shooting your targets at convergence or close to it.  On the up side you'll have a crapload more ammo than you are used to as well.  Generally I use 275 yards for all guns as my convergence point, but some folks like a longer one.  It's personal taste, skill, and control setup that makes the difference here.  Try different settings between 300 and 400 or so, and make sure you converge all 8 guns at the same point.  Also, be sure to take the larger ammo load for 8 guns.  Taking less guns or less ammo simply gives you less weight to drag around, but given the huge weight of the Jug, it's not that big of a performance gain to go lighter on a % basis.  8 guns and lots of ammo is one of the Jug's best features, so I recommend you take full advantage of that and take the overload ammo condition.  You don't win fights in a Jug by being nimble at low speed anyway, so the extra weight is not a big deal.  Your fuel load will make much more of a difference.

Now let me try to answer your questions:

The Jug burns fuel the way it should... that is it burns the AUX tank first.  You really don't want to have anything left in the AUX tank if you are going to get down and dirty in a tight E fight.  I normally try to stick to pure BnZ from advantage when I've got fuel in the AUX tank, it has a negative affect on the Jug's handling.  For this reason I don't usually use 50% and a drop tank like some do.  I prefer 75% internal in the Jug, that way I burn my AUX completely in climb-out, and I'm on to the regular tanks for the fighting bit.  Of course you don't have much flexibility this way, and if you get caught with a mostly full AUX tank you are in deep trouble, and will likely die.

Flaps.... the Jug has great combat flaps.  They will help you turn and maintain control at low speeds.  I don't normally use them to slow down... that's a bad idea in a Jug.  The 47 dives well and holds speed well, but it doesn't accellerate for crap, so be careful not to dump speed unless you absolutely must.  If you do need to dump speed, simply chop throttle and pull some high G barrel rolls... that will dump speed pretty quickly.  Under 200 Mph in a tight fight, I'll use a notch of flaps, maybe 2 if under 150 to try and keep my nose up.  However, that's kindof a last resort thing, you don't want to use any flap if you can avoid it.  The jug is all about conserving E, and using flaps will bleed E.

The jug has a great roll rate at medium to high speed.  It's not that bad slow, but you REALLY don't want to be slow enough to rely on that anyway.  I don't know if the Jug rolls "better" than a Dora at 400 or not... it's pretty close.  Not likely roll rate will be the deciding factor in that battle anyway, you can both roll pretty well.  Oh, just remember, don't try to win rolling scissors in the Jug.  It doesn't do well enough in low speed rolls to win them.  Generally the rolling scissors comes down to who can maintain control to keep rolling at the lowest speed, and the Jug is not a good choice there.  It's big and heavy, tends to keep it's speed up (which is bad in this case) and can't keep it's nose up at low speeds, even with lots of flap.  Generally anything with a lower sustained turning speed and better sustained turn capabilities is going to beat the Jug in this situation, so you want to avoid it.

Best defense when slow in a Jug?  Uh... don't get slow.  It does not accellerate well, DO NOT GET SLOW.  If you are below 250 MPH, use a 0G dive to get to 250.  You need speed to be able to perform evasives, and in the Jug you can't rely on accelleration to get the speed you need.  You must dive.  This means you should always try to keep at least 5k beneath your wings to work with.  With about 7k, the Jug can dive to "insane speed" and lose most other planes in the game for long enough to get to friendlies.  Your high speed dive is one of the best in the game, so be sure to use it.  If you are at say 6k and a higher 190 comes along and starts to set up the BnZ, wait until he misses the first attack and goes back up, then take that opportunity to 0G dive to 500 MPH or so and get the hell out of dodge.

The Jug is tough as hell, has great guns, and a great engine.  What it can't do is accellerate or climb for beans.  That means it's an E fighter that needs to START the fight with more E.  If you don't have more E than the other guy at the start of the fight, and you are flying a Jug, you will die unless the other fellow screws up.  You REQUIRE and E advantage to fight this plane effectively.

Oh and one more tip.  The Jug does very well in numbers.  Jugs tend to work better with wing pairs, or more.  For some reason it's great guns and speed seem to lend themselves to drag'n bag tactics much more so than slower fighters that rely more on turning ability.  Take a wing man with you, you'll be glad you did.  :D

Offline Scot

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
Lephturn,

Great Stuff!  I'm going to give the Jug some extra attention this TOD.

Thanks!
<S>
Scot
3./JG2

Offline Drex

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2001, 10:03:00 AM »
Leph's tips are right on the money.  I will add one thing from a defensive stance.  When you are being bounced(Don't get there you say...) throw you a notch of flaps when you pull into the bandit along or above your lift vector.  You can accelerate the bandits closure rate a bit then without any.  Any bit that helps us jug drivers to transition into a successful reversal, and still being able to have enough energy to setup additional aggressive defensive manuevers(ah theres a new one!) is worthy of attention.

In summary:

1 notch of flaps when you are in a position where you are going for a reversal.

Drex

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: Drex ]

Offline Rocket

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2001, 10:33:00 AM »
Drex,
  Really?
   I need to find ya online sometime and ride with ya.  The only thing flap ever seems to get me is stopped or at least kill any speed I had to start with.  Kinda like throwin an anchor out and using it to spin me around the anchorline I get turned fast but then I am slower than before with no acceleration.

S!
Rocket

Offline Lephturn

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2001, 02:16:00 PM »
One notch doesn't bleed you too bad, and it can help if you are trying to force an overshoot.  It definately helps you get around a bit faster below 250 or so.

Drex is the master here for sure.  He has made me overshoot many a time Jug vs. Jug, so I recommend you take his advice.  :D

Drex quite correctly points out that while you don't want to be in that situation (at an E disadvantage), the bottom line is that you will be.  It depends on the plane you are fighting against, but much of the time forcing an overshoot is your best option.  It's also the aggresive thing to do, so if you are not likely to escape or make it to friendlies, you might as well go for forcing an overshoot so you can fight your way out.  :)

Offline Swager

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
The door slams open!!!

The CO of JG2 looks around!!  Studies everyone!!

Damn!  He's gone!!

I'll catch him next time!!


 :)
Rock:  Ya see that Ensign, lighting the cigarette?
Powell: Yes Rock.
Rock: Well that's where I got it, he's my son.
Powell: Really Rock, well I'd like to meet him.
Rock:  No ya wouldn't.

Offline Wotan

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
I thought I saw Scot flying a jug as a bishop Swager.............

I hope that doesn't get him in trouble......

--------------------


Hptm. Wotan Wubke
Rot 3 fw-190d9 Dora
   
Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
(By order of the State Railway)

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2001, 04:05:00 PM »
I use flaps all the time in a Jug. 1 to 3 notches in turnfight. 1 to 2 notches passing a loop, as soon as I passed the top of the loop, I retract the flaps, I extend them again when I'm trying to pass an another loop.
I'm constantly playing with them.
The only time I go full flaps is when I doing a deep stall and I want to keep my nose in the same position. Doing so, you fly the plane with the rudder only.

My 2cts on flaps.
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------

Offline -ammo-

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2001, 04:56:00 PM »
First, Scot, are you the same -scot- I used to shoot at in Warbirds? I believe the scot I remember flew gold. anyways..

Leph is on the money about his advice. The AH P-47 has its strengths and weaknesses, which he has outlined well. I fly it by the book, so to speak. I strive to be the highest, the fastest, and I use the Hub Zemke doctrine.. Dive, hit, and recover, repeat. a couple of things that can get you in trouble is succombing to that urge to saddle up on a low wing loaded AC in your sights. This will get you in trouble. Alot of guys attack a spit, la7, whatever and will attempt to get that last littel bit of turn to get them the shot they want, inevitably they may get a few, sometimes they dont. But now the worse thing happens, you are slow and vulnerable. I prefer to setup passes, and rely on my gunnery and the other pilot to make a mistake. the other guy will push a bad situation and try to fight you uphill. Thats when you get him.

and yes, you will be caught low, and slow, and will die some. Its the nature of the MA. Drex, frenchy,a nd others can really convert the situation into their favor. They will take a defensive situation and end up offensive. Drex's gunnery is really good and he doesnt miss much when they overshoot him. I am not that good. Frenchy, and sancho can really make their P-47's turn. They do some uncanny stuff. I would love to comment on leph's flying but I never see him in the arena  ;)

to repeat myself, i am a believer in the philosophy that he cant shoot you down if you are nowhere near his guns. I just keep diving and recovering.


edit-- on flaps, I use them all the time...when I am landing :) flaps slow you down, I dont saddle up, so I dont use them. I would rather have every ounce of energy I can squeeze out. Flaps, while they will enhance your low speed handling, slow you down.

[ 10-30-2001: Message edited by: -ammo- ]
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Lephturn

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2001, 06:52:00 AM »
Unfortunately, I haven't had much time recently Ammo, and what I do have I tend to spend helping folks on the boards, via email, or in the TA.  I have found time to bust a few trains and try out the Mossie though.  :)

I am one of the folks Ammo talks about who uses the P47 as a knife fighter.  I know Drex and Frenchy do as well... they are just better at it than I am.  :)  There is nothing I like better than a good knife fight with a Spit or a Yak where I kill them.  With an E advantage to start with, I can get that kill sometimes, but the problem as Ammo suggests, is that I'm normally left in a bad position for the next bogey to come along.  A tip for those of you who get a kill and find yourself slow with bad guys incoming... 0G dive toward home!  When you get a kill in the Jug and there are other co-E or higher enemies around, you need to exit the area and grab some altitude before you are ready to fight again.  If you discipline yourself to exit the area (when necessary) after a kill and grab some alt before engaging again, you will do very well in the Jug.

Offline Scot

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2001, 06:59:00 AM »
< looks and see's Swagger leaving ( that damn pink tutu is a dead give away) >
 
First to dispell the rumors: It was Bishop Jugs I had shot down with my D30 < I couldn't catch any of those damn JV44 190s    :) >

Ammo I see you never fully recovered from your head injury from the last time you ditched in WB to avoid my UBER 20mm    :D .

The flaps on the Jug are tremendous, but I think I'll need to practice more to understand the finer points mentioned by Drex and Frenchy.

I think for now I'm more comfortable with the Zemke doctrine. Last night everytime I saddled up... I was in trouble soon afterward < thank God I had Prof Fate to bail me out >. If I do the "wham bam thank ya mam", I get my kill and extend to start again. Flown as a per E fighter, and never getting below 5k the Jug is a Monster!

I really appreciate your guys comments and help. Getting help from great sticks only shows you how much more there is to learn. I've flown LW iron exclusive since my early days in WB and JG14 < you guys haven't seen nothing until you get Drex in a 109     :D >. US iron is a whole new animal. My interest has been perked for the Jug by my neighbor. He's in his early 80s, great guy, active as hell and found out he flew Jugs in Europe '43-'45 < haven't found out his unit yet but hoping to get together with him soon and look over some old photos!>.  

< see's Swagger coming back ( damn those tights look bunched in the back    :eek:  ).. runs out the back door >

<S>
Scot
3./JG2
"Swagger's Angels"

[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: Scot ]

Offline Am0n

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2001, 07:53:00 AM »
Scot

First off listen to these guys they have helped me out in the p47 more than anything. When i first sat in this thing i was flying it way wrong, but for your self since you fly the LW AC your already off to a good start.


The dive flaps dont help much as you noted over 350, the trick is to chop throttle and administer the dive flaps before nosing down, so buy the time you hit that critical speed youll be in a posistion to pull out and recover.


I normaly only use the flaps to dive bomb, which is what i do best. Im not much of a fighter i spend most of my time attacking bases with the huge amount of ordinance it can carry. But on the flip side the Jug is my best fighter once i loose all of my ordinace. ive tried several other AC and found this tank with wings to be the one that suits my flying style.


Note on the armor: I got into a slow low fight after attacking a base against a spit fire. I out scissored him and he was flinging bullets at me the whole time i was pulling the manuever. He must have burned all his cannon rounds trying to get a shot on my scissors because he started landing sustained hits and many many of them doing no damage. he was 400 back decending and getting countless hits on me. he emptied all his 303s into me, he was outta ammo and i was 100% in shape. my scissors was able to make him over shoot and now he was the one infront of me, i had a great shot lining up at 300 back/gaining and just as i was getting my aimpoint where i needed it a enemy jug bounced me hard knocking off my wingtip saving the spit. he was co alt with less E, i surely would have shredded him.


I wish i could have filmed this because ive never seen another AC take that much abuse and have no damage at all, not even my old love the hellcat (although its a tough puppy!).

I my self still have much to learn about this AC, im also making note of all the info in this thread. Thx for all the good stuff!

Offline Drex

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2001, 08:25:00 AM »
Great Scot!  Man, didn't know it was you.  Glad to see you in AH when I get back online(having a baby in the next week) look me up and we'll wing.  Any other blackshirts coming over?

Drex
JG14 -Retired

Offline Ripsnort

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P47 Tips for a LW Jockey....
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2001, 08:34:00 AM »
Drex is having a baby!   :eek:   :eek:

Damn, have them give you a C-section dude! Otherwise you'll never walk the same.