Author Topic: Wake Up America  (Read 2076 times)

Offline JB88

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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2005, 10:22:15 PM »
I'm not going to educate you, you've got some reading to do. Get back to me when you are informed.  - steve

steve,

perhaps you missed the parts that i added after, especially the article which i have linked sir.

you might reread them.  or perhaps you have fixated on my statement which goes against your beliefs and have chosen to ignore them.

i am well informed on the subject sir and have read much on the topic.

so its fair to say that i am officially getting "back to you".

perhaps you might direct me to something that would counter these quotes and observations? you being learned and all, i suspect that you have a vast arsenal that you are simply holding back so as not to hurt me.

well, fire away!  i have no trouble with accepting a different perspective once adequate proof has been provided.

would be most appreciated i am sure.

88
« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 10:25:04 PM by JB88 »
this thread is doomed.
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word.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2005, 11:09:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Make up a problem then rant about it.. heck you can get an idiot elected President that way.


Nah, I don't think so MT.

I mean they tested your theory in the last two elections and neither Gore nor Kerry won.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Steve

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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2005, 03:08:26 AM »
You need go no further than the first paragraph in the declaration of independence.  Most of its signers were Christain.  There was a motion to substitute "Jesus Christ"  for "God" but it was wisely struck down, in spite of the vast Christian majority because:


Quote
in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.


In otherwords, while mostly Christian, they didn't want to force their religion on anyone.

Interestingly enough, although the majority of the signer were, the author of the Declaration was not necessarily a Christian.  It is an ongoing dipute. What is clear is that Jefferson valued civil rights above anything else and did not want them dependent on religious opinions.


Additionally, osme States had religious declarations in their individual constitutions.  Massachusetts:

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"the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend on piety, religion and morality."


All of those who particpated in the debates about the constitution(of Mass) were Christian, though of differing churches.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2005, 03:16:53 AM by Steve »
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2005, 04:45:05 AM »
steve,

thanks for your reply.  glad to see it.

i am heading off to the sack, but look forward to responding tommorrow.

we may need to have to clarify a few terms so we dont walk circles around what i find to be a very interesting subject.

i remain in disagreement, but i think that i just understood why.

ill get back on this pronto.

until then.



88
this thread is doomed.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2005, 05:19:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
You may not like it, but our country was founded on Christain values and it has done rather well, don't you think?  
Steve! Long time...

Not saying you're wrong in what you say, and you know I'd never flame YOU ;) but I have a question.

If the US was founded on Christian values, why the need for the 1st Amendment? I thought that a big part of the mass migration to the US from Europe in the 19th century was to escape religious persecution - not the only issue of course. I always thought the US wanted to protect the beliefs of those who had been persecuted in the old countries.

I've been to the Ellis Island "museum of immigration" (don't recall its official title) in New York (twice) and read a lot of the material provided there. There were immigrants from many different countries and religious faiths, though many were probably branches of Christianity. However, New York itself ended up with a huge number of Jews, and there are more jews living in NY state than in Israel. I myself have been to many social gatherings in NY, and it was not unusual for the gentiles like myself to be outnumbered by Jews.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2005, 05:30:55 AM »
Like you said, the Christian religion doesn't exist as a large hole, but as a bunch of different branches and beliefs.  Throughout history it has been a Human Past time to beat up those religous beliefs that are weaker than you and not in power.


What the founders were pretty much saying was that "Our freedoms are given to us by God.  And in this new country, any god of yours is good enough to be in the USA."
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Offline JBA

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« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2005, 09:19:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Make up a problem then rant about it.. heck you can get an idiot elected President that way.



ACLU and The NAACP do it all the time. jesse jackson and al sharpton can run for president that way.


Welcome back MT missed you there for a while. Happy new Year, and Merry Christmas.
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storch

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« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2005, 09:43:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Make up a problem then rant about it.. heck you can get an idiot elected President that way.


MT is 100% correct as usual. in fact a few times it has actually occurred. Franklyn Roosevelt, Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Baines Johnson, James Carter and Billy Jeff come immediately to mind.  whew, thank God it didn't occur in 2000 or in 2004.  though 2000 was a close call.  :D

Offline OIO

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« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2005, 10:48:53 AM »
whoever wrote that article couldve done a much better job imo.


Hes right in the part of the nation adapting to the newcomers instead of the newcomers adapting to their new home.


This political correctness and minority crapola... sigh.


Here's a little something for ye to consider:

Im from Colombia, South America. Born and raised there, immigrated to the USA when i was 19.

My parents were also born and raised and lived all their lives in Colombia. However, the generations before that came from other countries.

Grandparents&Great-Grandparents came from USA, Sweden and Spain.

Genetically im 'white'. Culturally im hispanic.

When i started college in the US i was looking over some scholarships i could apply... bear in mind that I had no idea back then how things worked here.

So I began to look at the different scholarships...

out of a list of about 20, I found i could apply to about 8 of them because i was hispanic. I could apply to about 4 of them because they were open to all. The remainder i could not apply to because i wasnt black or asian.

Some of my classmates were applying for the scholarships as well... they were white guys and girls who were born and raised in florida, us citizens from birth.

It seemed so wrong to me that they could only apply to 4 scholarships while i could apply to 12.

Then i learned it was because I was in florida and that because of the huge 'minority interest groups' in the government that there was so many scholarships for hispanics.

SO wrong in my eyes i was so disgusted i didnt even apply for any. I didnt really need it but it wouldve been nice to have.. but some of my classmates REALLY needed it. And they were limited to... 4. *sigh*.

I have worked from housekeeping to tech support to mortage and cable co. costumer service....  in all those jobs I find that companies have 'spanish' lines for their hispanic customers....

and ive ended up in those lines. Without exagerating, 8 out of 10 callers cant speak english at all yet have been in the US for years if not decades. These companies have those spanish lines because of that, not because of tourism or to be helpful to the recently arrived immigrants.. no, its because of these hordes of people who dont bother to learn the language of the country they go to live in.

worse still, i get paid MORE than my collegues because of this. $1 to $2 more per hour.

If that wasnt enough, while working for the cable co. there was a massive layoff ... co. cut down from having about 800 CSR's to a mere 250.

I didnt lose my job because i was hispanic i later learned. The Co. either couldnt afford to lose whatever statistics the government requires them to have (not clear on this yet.. they give them tax breaks or they mandate them to have a certain % of minorities employed or something like that) or they couldnt afford to let go the spanish line CSR's (which we were about 20).


All this is bullcrap in my opinion. I was discussing this with a co-worker friend of mine one day while i was working in tech support, about all the unfairness of the thing.. and later that day i got called up to human resources because of an HR issue.

Some cuban girl had overheard what i was talking with my friend and reported me to HR for racism.

Can you believe that?

The HR manager was very serious with me discussing the whole deal. I was about to laugh my bellybutton off but tried very hard not to... although it was clear to him that i found the whole thing amusing and dumb.

He saw it my way when i told him i was hispanic. They called in the girl who began to accuse me of all loads of stereotype racism-accusing crap... then I answered to her in spanish and she just STOPPED. Her tone changed completely after that.

If I had been a US born white guy in that situation i wouldve had that HR ticket stuck in my record forever screwing any chance of promotion or perhaps even lost my job.

But because I was hispanic all the sudden the HR issue was 'dropped'.

Kinda the same thing chris rock does making jokes of black people and racism and stuff and its funny.. and as he said it, if a white guy made the same jokes it wouldnt be funny.


Its a sad state of things really :(

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2005, 11:28:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
MT is 100% correct as usual.  :D


Thank you.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2005, 11:34:47 AM »
I'll refer you to the Boondocks cartoon I saw in the paper the other day.


All it was, was those two kids standing there as a white jogger ran past.  They said, "White People."

That's it.


What if it was the other way though.

What if two white kids were just standing there.  In the frame is a black guy running with a VCR under his arm.  The two kids say, "Black People."



What do you think would have happened?
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2005, 11:37:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'll refer you to the Boondocks cartoon I saw in the paper the other day.


All it was, was those two kids standing there as a white jogger ran past.  They said, "White People."

That's it.


What if it was the other way though.

What if two white kids were just standing there.  In the frame is a black guy running with a VCR under his arm.  The two kids say, "Black People."



What do you think would have happened?


Poor baby. I hope you can recover from this horror.

Offline Furious

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« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2005, 01:45:03 PM »
heheh.

Kinda reminds me of daniel carver's "wake up white people".

Offline Steve

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« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2005, 02:20:39 PM »
Quote
If the US was founded on Christian values, why the need for the 1st Amendment?


Hiya Beet, 88. This is the crux of the issue really. These same Christians who founded our country knew that many people fled Europe because of religious persecution.  They recognized that to impose their form of worship via legislation would be to make the same mistakes Europe had made. Being Christian does not mean you will not tolerate how others worship.  Additionally, many of our early politicians deliberately steered clear of this debate so as not to appear to favor one religion over the other.  Again, they knew that the US had to be a place where people could worship as they saw fit.  George Washington is a great exampe of this.  His recorded conversations on religion are quite ambiguous.  I don't know factually, but I feel this was deliberate for reasons I've mentioned.

Our first amendment is being assailed by the secular whackos like the ACLU almost daily and to date the silent majority* has put up with it.  Eventually, they will be fed up and take a stand.


* Again, some may not like this but the majority of the population here is Christian.


Unfortunately, fanatacs on both sides like to argue the point about our country being founded on Christian values.  The left will argue with snippets and factoids that show some of our forefathers were not Christian.  The right will point to references to God, etc.

The fact is self evident.  The vast majority of people in our country at the time, and those who participated in the founding process, were Christian. Therefore, they possessed Christian values that guided them.

This sounds great for the religious right on the surface but does it mean what they claim?  I do not think it does to the degree some extremists on the right believe because, as I've mentioned, these very wise men saw that in order for a country to be free, it must be devoid of religious persecution.  

In conclusion, I feel that we were founded on Christian values with tolerence for all peaceful religions. The country simply would not have thrived so brilliantly otherwise.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2005, 02:34:49 PM »
this all comes from not ending womens suffrage.   I don't know what we will do about the sissy city male "metrosexual" liberals tho..

MT, ask your wife what to reply and get back to me.

lazs