What to do in the following case?

[Naudet]

Soon i will finish my 1st year of AH and i have learned a lot, but there is still a situation that gets me most of the times killed.

As you already migh know, my plane of choice is the D9, and everything in here will be based on me flying a D9.

If attacked, i can handle high speed attackers, low speed attackers, but what i really cant handle are those situation were i got someone on my 6 and he is closing slowly and he is already within 800 yrds.
I tried everything, scissors, rolling scissors, skids, barrelrolls etc.

The only time i really got a change against those folks, is when i got lots (8K+) vertikal room below me, than i use my acceleration and rollig to get away.
But if i dont have so much room nothing works.
Now i wonder if its me, or just the charateristics of the D9 that make those situations so dangerous.
I know i cant outturn my hunter and when scissoring against someone with only a minor speed advantage, there is a dam god chance for him to light me up with a long burst.

What can or should i do in such a situation?

[Dawvgrid]

I`ve got the same prob,,,and you are a better pilot than I (so far)  .I also fly
the dora strickly,,well almost,,,,,sometimes the a5.But I try to make some big waving from side to side,make him get closer,,then a hard turn,chop throttle,go into barrelroll and hope he`ll overshoot,which he normally dosn`t.I guess sometimes you end up like dead meat,,,,,,somebody has to  

[lapa]

Hi Naudet,

I have less experience than you so I wont pretend to know any secret stuff to get you out of this. But think about that from the attackers perspective.. thats pretty much the ideal position to be in as the attacker. If you are flying that D9 and closing on say.. a P47 like that I bet you are already drooling, finger on the trigger and planning where to fit the next the kill mark on your rudder. I would at least  

If I'm in a better turner I usually just try to flat out turn inside the attacker with a flat break, split s or the like. This occasionally works but usually an attacker who has heard about lag pursuit and yoyos can  hang back there and wax me. If I'd be in the D9, there are two things I could try to use. One is the same you mentioned-just trying to outrun him. I know it, you know it, everyone in the arena knows it.. a D9/LA7/P51 jinking and running away on the deck is a fixture of any AH furball scene. If it looks like I won't be able to outrun, then I start with a break/scissors or whatever and when he gets a bit closer I'll try a desperate overshoot move, maybe even spin the plane and just hope that he is a bad shot. If he is not, then I pull out the silk evasion device.

In short, if you get in that situation you will probably get shot down no matter what you try. If some ace has a reliable way to get out of those kinds of situations, sign me up for the training  

Lapa

[Spatula]

Same is true when flyin the P51.

The problem lies in you having an inferior sustained turning plane than your opponent, if you didnt, you can simply out-turn em. As a general rule (and this aint allways true), but if it can out-turn you, then you stand a good chance of having a sustained speed advantage. This gives rise to two points:
1, You should have used your speed adantage in the first place to have never allowed this to happen.
2, you can simply out-run him. If he has a significant temporary speed advantage over you then you can sissor or barrell roll him. If he holds no significant speed advantage you can jink and 'extend'.

If all else fails, remember that that 190 may well have an acceleration advatange over your opponent, so try slowing him down and using your acceleration advantage to build seperation/E/Speed.

If your not on the deck (which you prolly should avoid) then you can spiral dive in relative saftey, and if your good enuf, and your opponent is stoopid enough you may even cause an overshoot  

[Naudet]

I must get more presice.

The situation i mean, is were an enemy is already in gunrange, so i cant simply accel away, but not so close that i can force him to overshoot.
If this distance factor is combined with a minor speed advantage of the guy behind, it is almost everytime my death, except in the cases were i got alt to work with.

So an example would be the following.
I am in a D9 at 3k, with speed of 280-300 mph, with a P51, Spit IX etc. hanging 650yrds behind me.
And he is closing with about 10yrds per second.

To me this seems to be the point were i can only die with honor unless i would change my plane.

[Dawvgrid]

In that case im normally dead,,,,,,but pull up hard,stall your plane (pulling the brake)
it`s a desperate manouver,but sometimes you force your opponent to overshot,,,maybe.
When I hear the first pings,and the guy is at 500 yards and closing,I tend to turn to desperate means.
But again Naudet sometimes you can`t do anything about it,,,,

[Lephturn]

Well the problem here is that you have pretty much lost the fight at this point.  It's almost like saying he's D300 on your 6 with you right in his sights.  The situation you describe is mere seconds from enemy guns ripping into your plane, so no matter what you do at this point, you will die most of the time.  Hope the other guy is not a good shot or a good pilot, because if he is either you are doomed.

First off, don't get in this situation.  In the D9, you can avoid it in most cases if you have good SA and you work at it.  Even if it was VS. a P-51 or an La7, you have options before it gets to this point.  Say a 0G dive to get both of you to high speed before he's in guns range, then hard maneuvering to drop speed very quickly would have avoided the situation you describe.  Basically, if a guy is going to catch you in this situation and you can't run, you'd better make sure his closure rate is high.  Often a good way to do this is to take the chase to high speed, then chop throttle and use hard barrel rolls, scissors, or whatever to increase closure and go for an overshoot.  One thing the FW has always done well is dump speed in hard maneuvers.  

Assuming we are already in the situation you describe, there is really only two things you can do.

1.  If you have some kind of a sustained speed advantage, you can try to dive and jink away.  Hope he's not a good shot and/or doesn't get lucky.  If you don't have a speed advantage to escape, all that's left is an overshoot.  One good idea is to use hard breaks to prevent being shot, and when he breaks to avoid the overshoot use that for maximum separation to make your escape.

I'm assuming here that you won't have a sustained turn advantage over anything in the D9.  

2.  Force an overshoot.  Now at this point, you better hope he isn't a great shot, and he isn't smart enough to sit back and wait you out.  If you don't think you can escape, say vs. an La7, this is what you are going to have to do.  It's bad odds, but you MUST try and force the overshoot.  Chop throttle and maneuver HARD.  On the edge of stall.  Watch your speed, and get throttled back up as your speed drops close to your stall speed.  If you have flaps, use 'em to get you slowed down.  You can do a barrel roll underneath, or some kind of scissors.  Try not to do a move that goes upward at all, as this will allow your attacker an easy shot.  Watch him carefully, and if he overshoots, be ready to nail him for it right then.  If he's smart and drops to lag or goes vertical to stay behind you, use the separation to 0G dive and gain some E before he comes back again.

[mipoikel]

I think its not a shame to die in that situation. ( I mean Naudet) I have some experience of fight vs you and if someone gets in to ur 6 he must be a good pilot.  

Those "battles" vs Naudet are like this:

Nice beautiful sky and everything seems to be clear. Suddenly my plane blows up and I see a message : you were shot down by Naudet

 

[K West]

IMO scissors and rolls are about your last option. If you go verticle at all in the D9, with a bogy that close, you're dead. Unless that bogies pilot is a total newby.

 About all you can do is go for the overshoot, maybe even get off a snap shot during a scicoser and roll out on in unexpected direction to get more seperation.

Westy

[aknimitz]

In this situation, I have a move I always like to use and it is incredibly effective.  Ideally you will have about 1K between you and the attack, 800 works if it has to sometimes.  

What I like to do is go into a gentle turn, getting the attacker to commit to lead pursuit.  This is crucial.  If the attacker chooses lag pursuit, nose down as much as you can and try to get some more separation and set up another attack.  Ok, so you have the attacker in lead pursuit trying to get guns on and you are in a gentle turn.  As the attacker begins to close, pull the turn tighter and tighter as he gets closer and closer.  JUST when U feel the attacker has a guns solution, reverse hard and UP at about 45 (or more).  I like to do this around 300 yards or so, depending on how tight yer turning.  What should happen is this ... the attacker will reverse back with you looking for flat scissor.  You are up above him, wait, and roll down on him (or use this opportunity to extend).

And I agree that rolling and flat scissors especially in the D9 are quite effective in this situation as well ... possibly even some vertical scissor if you are comfortable with it.  The key as Lephturn stated is getting that overshoot so that you can gain guns or the opportunity to extend.  Use all the tricks you can to get that overshoot, throttle chop, flaps and even eng kill if the situation calls for it.

If you want to work on that move I described, give me a shout anytime I am in the MA (or any other arena) and we'll head to TA to work on it.

Hope this helps...

Nim

PS
I have this on film as well if you would like to watch it (I think).  Shoot me an email, nimitz@huckabay.net if yer interested and I'll dig 'em up.

[Kratzer]

I'm interested nimitz.  bob.lefevre@shlgroup.com

[Urchin]

LOL Nim, that sounds awfully similar to what I do in that situation.  

Against a P51, it is actually pretty easy to get away, even if they are closing slowly within 800 yards or so.  

I usually do almost exactly what Nimitiz jsut said, at least I think.  I'll describe it just in case I read it wrong.

I'm screaming along on the deck at 350 mph or so with a P51 on my 6.  He dove down as I was running away from a Spit, but I want to run to put some distance between us and the Spit before I kill him. (And yea, that is actually how I think in that situation, too  ).  

I'll run until either A. The P51 closes to within 600 yards, or B. The Spit is out of icon range.  At that point, I normally do a gentle (1-2 G) turn to the right, and watch to see what he does.  If he tries to pull LEAD on me, I tighten the turn up to 4-5G or so (not quite a blackout).  This is the point where feel plays a big role.  You can pull this on Spits also, but it is quite a bit harder since they decelerate and accelerate about as well as a Dora does.  Once I think the Bandit is about to hit his trigger (usually 450-600 yards on my end, farther if it has been real laggy), I roll level (or at least closer to level), and then do a barrel roll around where the bandit *should* be if he has gone for the kill.  In most cases for me, it is a "left" barrel roll.  

At this point you have 4 options, which depend on what the bandit has done.  Option 1:  If the Bandit has missed his shot, but it real persistant (or not to bright), he will attempt to follow you through the roll.  This will lead to you being on his tail in anywhere from 1 to 3 rolls, depending on how much faster he was *** OR: if you opponent is a Spit, F6F, P38, Zeke, or some other good turning but rather slow plane, you MAY not get on his tail at all.  Instead he will slow down rapidly as you both roll. At the point where he has gone from being beside you to beginning to drift behind you (i.e. you will get your bellybutton shot down if you keep rolling), it is time to break off the fight.  Roll like you normally would, but instead of continuining to roll after you and the bandit "pass" eachother, keep pulling until you are headed 180 degrees AWAY from the bandit and run like hell.***

Option 2- If the Bandit didn't bite, but instead went high (instead of going for the kill), you can follow him up if you think you can make it.

Option 3- Or, if the bandit went high, you can roll to a new heading and get your speed back up, to do it all over again.

Generally, most people that try to BnZ get a little careless.  If after you start your turn, they immediately go high, you are probably facing either a newbie, or someone that is new to BnZ.  I usually let them go high, and come back down again 2 or 3 times.  After they have gotten careless (i.e. they "know" what you are going to do), instead of levelling out after they go up, I'll simply go into a gentle zoom after them out of the gentle turn.  Usually they will either lose you completely (which means a really easy kill), or they will panic and do stupid things (which is only a slightly harder kill).

Creating an overshoot is really all about timing.  It helps to have a good roll rate and a decent turn rate, but a good sense of timing is absolutely critical.

[myelo]

...Or you can disregard all this complicated stuff and do what most 190 pilots really do in this situation -- start yanking the stick side-to-side as fast as humanly possible until the other guy runs out of ammo or gets bored and leaves.  

[aknimitz]

Well said Urchin ... that is exactly what I do except I am a bit more aggressive and tease them into thinkin' I am going for flat scissor so they will whip around as I roll up and then back down on them.  Excellent description tho ...

NIm

[Andy Bush]

Naudet

Depending on your relative performance capability compared to the attacker, your choices are:

1. A hard turn, either in-plane or out of plane.

2. A rolling maneuver.

3. A jink out.

4. An in-plane weave.

5. Or one of several "last ditch" maneuvers.

Please note that a scissors is not mentioned. This is because a scissors is a "reactive" maneuver. not a "proactive" maneuver. This means that a scissors is something that you do as the result of a bandit overshoot. It is NOT something you do to cause an overshoot.

1. Hard turn. An in-plane turn, commonly referred to as a "break", is good when you can generate a turn radius that is smaller than the attacker can. Note...this is only a function of the speed that the attacker is at, not the type of aircraft that the attacker is. A Zero at 350mph will overshoot a hard turning blivot at 250mph if they can both generate the same G!

The out of plane hard turn is often the Split S in a guns defense.

2. Rolling maneuver. What makes a rolling maneuver "work" well is that the attacker must pull lead to successfully track the target. When that target is rolling with considerable G, the attacker will have a difficult time getting "inside" that roll.

You may roll either into or opposite the direction of turn. Note that once you are in the defensive turn, there is seldom the excess G available to allow you to perform a rolling maneuver into the attacker as most see it.

3. Jink out. In your situation, this is often your best bet, particularly if you are slow. A jink out is a series of rapid rolls followed by hard pulls. The idea is to not allow a steady target for the attacker to aim at. If done unloaded, the jink may also allow you to gain some speed.

4. In-plane weave. Sometimes called the Level S Defense. Difficult to perform without getting shot. This is a "timing" maneuver that is based on getting the attacker "out of phase" with the defender. Usually initiated from a hard break that is not working...the defender suddenly unloads while maintaining his bank. He shoves negative G and watches the attacker's nose. He hopes to surprise the attacker...the result is that the attacker will either bunt or roll to follow the unload. When the defender sees the bunt or the roll, he then pulls hard into the attacher attempting to force an overshoot. This drill may be repeated more than once.

5. "Last ditch" maneuver. Typical of these are the High G Rolls, either "over the top" or " underneath". Both are very rapid energy depleters and intend to force a longitudinal overshoot rather than an angular overshoot. A throttle chop can acccentuate the increase in closure. The reason for the "last ditch" term is that if the maneuver doesn't "work", then you've had the course.

Andy

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Andy Bush ]