This is Disturbing.. if you're sane.

[bustr]

Originally posted by midnight Target
"What we have done in Iraq is what bin Laden could not have hoped for in his wildest dreams: We invaded an oil-rich Muslim nation in the heart of the Middle East, the very type of imperial adventure bin Laden has long predicted was the U.S.'s long-term goal in the region. We deposed the secular socialist Saddam, whom bin Laden has long despised, ignited Sunni and Shi'a fundamentalist fervor in Iraq, and have now provoked a defensive jihad that has galvanized jihad- minded Muslims around the world. It's hard to imagine a set of policies better designed to sabotage the war on terror." - Peter Bergen


"Peter Bergen is a fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington D.C; an Adjunct Professor at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University"

Best intentions aside, this analysis is dead on. Unfortunately. We now have to create a democracy out of nothing and make it work. I have no doubt that Iraq will be number one on the hit parade for the next Presidential election and maybe the one after that. Sad really.

Midnight,

Given the analysis above, give us your scenario of world events for 01/01/02 - 01/01/12  that might have unfolded if Bush had done everything Peter Bergan and Co. in their combined wisdom would have had him do. But please factor in continued attacks on western targets and citizens, and how the west would address the murders of western citizens to it's populations.

[midnight Target]

You 1st.

[patrone]

Originally posted by Muckmaw1
You're laughing all alone here cause I don't know WTF your talking about.

Kiss Muckmaw, you are a true Gem....

[TheDudeDVant]

During major combat operations? Major combat operations were over quite early in this war as spoken by our president aboard the AC.. I believe at that time the death rate was very low..

You cannot compare the occupation of Iraqi with the 1990 gulf war..

How about we compare the amount of destroyed armor between the 1990 gulf war and this war.. Perhaps better?

[Sandman]

It's probably a gross oversimplification to compare casualties... but here goes.

U.S. Military deaths to hostile action during Operation Iraqi Freedom (thru April 30, 2003) = 109

U.S. Military deaths to hostile action during Desert Storm (January 16, 1990 to Sept 14, 1991) = 147 (total coalition deaths = 378).


I'll come clean and state right out that I'm not real certain of the coalition figure. I searched for numbers and landed on Wikipedia. The U.S. figures are good, however.

[Muckmaw1]

I'm sure it is oversimplified.

However, from those numbers, it would indicate that Iraq's Military was somewhat weaker in 2003 than in 1991.

Factor in the lack of any air to air engagements in the second gulf war. Though they were limited at best in the first.

Factor in the fact that the second involved the capturing of Baghdad where the first did not.

Had we gone to Baghdad in GW1, where would those numbers be? Significantly higher, I would presume.

[storch]

Iraq was a very logical point for our conquest of Asia Minor.  A very sound move really.  Doesn't Iran have WMDs?  I'm sure that all of Iraq's WMDs are now in Jordan and Syria as well.  Is Lebanon threatening us again?????!!!!!??????!!!!!!

[bustr]

OK Midnight here's a fist installment.

2002-2004

2002 - Bush accepts the UN's and EU's advice and does not invade iraq. Sanctions are expanded as a show of strength to Hussen. Hussen takes them to the bank. OBL's network gets additional funding and plans ongoing diversionary attacks against western interests. Afganistan being in the boonies is put on a back burner by OBL.

2003 - Bush is loosing credibility amongst the moderate US population and the Liberal Media and the DNC take advantage of this to undercut his image as the protector of America in a time of War. His popularity drops to 32%, even though he has agreed with the UN and the EU on how to deal with Iraq. The Liberal Media covers up the economic recovery and nails Bush on his domestic policies. Again his approval rating drops to 28%. OBL's networks set off a number of bombings world wide against western interests and citizens to take advantage of Bush's low popularity. The Liberal media has a feild day with the attacks and makes it all Bush's fault. The UN and the EU reccomend political solutions. As we know the attacks are just terrorist business as usuall.

2004 - Terrorist attacks world wide are on the increase because world opinion has been focused on the idea that it's all Bush's fault. By this time Bush has been made a house hold name for everything wrong in the west and Hussen and OBL are the darlings of the Liberal media. To help insure Bush's defeat at the polls in November, a number of suicide bombings finally occur on US soil starting in August. Bush looses the election in a landslide to his DNC rival. 11/3/04 both Hussen and OBL release statments of vindication and glee over Bush's defeat. The DNC never questioned the sources of some party donations.

2005 - The newley elected Democrat president promises solidarity with the UN and to pursue political solutions to the war on terror. He also addresses the UN assembly to personally offer his apologies for what Bush put the world through for 4 years. Plans are now in motion on a time table based on a Democrat president being in the white house. As 2005 unfolds bombings and civil unrest start picking up around the world against western interests and citizens. The large muslim imigrant populations in the EU begin to place political and terrorist preassure on the local governments. Late 2005 the question of what happened to Iraq's chemical wheapons during the inspections in the 90's are answered. Serin gas and mustard gas attacks are mixed in with suicide bombings.

2006 - The US is looked at as weak by the rest of the world. Political solutions with the middle east have the usual results. The EU economy is hurting from terrorist activities and OBL wants to escalate against the US. Food for Oil is still funding Hussen and everyone involved. But the US is not interfering in person anywhere but Afganistan, and the US president has started talking troop withdrawal. World events have embolden the taliban to step up insugency again in Afganistan. The media is silent.

2007 - The ball drops in Times Square. 12 gentelmen of middle eastern descent unscrew the tops to their thermos bottels and toss them out into the crowds at the last stroke of the clock. 1212 people die from the serin in the bottles. OBL releases a video proclaiming this just the begining. The president makes a statement that all law enforcement resources will be brought to play in seeking out the perpertrators of this atrocity. The media has littel to say other than 12 gentelmen of middle eastern descent commited suicide by serin and incured 1200 collateral deaths. But the president is not blamed that buck is passed to the military and homeland defence for dropping the ball. Through out the year more attacks occur on US soil starting the economy into a down turn. No one in congress is listening to citizen groups in Arizona about the ongoing ilegal immigrant conga line through their southern border. Seems gentelmen of middle eastern descent have been caught there and released since 2003. The media is silent about this and about the cargo being run into the country by boat from columbia that isn't drugs.

2008 - The economy is sliding mainly due to the fear of the next suicide attack. Consumors don't want to go anywhere. Go figure? Around the world attacks are now a part of doing business. Hussen's bank accounts are looking good. OBL has stopped hiding in the boonies. The US and a few allies launch antiterroist raids around the world to shore up civilian confidence. OBL lets it ride. The US has no plans to invade anyone. Whats a few dead operatives in the scheam of things. It might even help keep a democrat in the white house and the US at home......................... ..............continued.

[Steve]

We now have to create a democracy out of nothing and make it work.

Sort of like Germany and Japan in 1945... ya, it will never work.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by NUKE
Saddam never complied with the cease-fire and refused to reveal the records of his wmd. He continued to hold onto banned weapons.

Why do you keep telling this lie after it has been proven incorrect time and time again on this BBS?

[Thrawn]

"Sort of like Germany and Japan in 1945... ya, it will never work."

Ya, because a muslim, middle-eastern Iraq in 20002 is exactly like Germany and Japan in 1945.

[Momus--]

If only SUVs ran on denial and cognitive dissonance rather than oil

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Why do you keep telling this lie after it has been proven incorrect time and time again on this BBS?

Sorry Thrawn, what part do you consider a lie?

[2stony]

Originally posted by Sandman:

Iraq posed an imminent threat to the safety and security of the United States!

     Since you believe that, I have a deal on some land in a river delta I promise will never flood.

 

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Momus--
If only SUVs ran on denial and cognitive dissonance rather than oil

yeah, then  the UN and lots of Europe would have free fuel for a lifetime.