Author Topic: Stick Stirrer (Read 1395 times)

dedalos · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2005, 12:46:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
There is no "most" or "always"

I've seen a great deal of different planes doing the stick stirring flipflop.

F-4's, F6's, FM2's, Hurricanes, Spits, And most recently a La7.

Just cut your throttle enough to stay behind them and blow em away

OK OK OK, I am just saying that 190s are the best tool for it. I had a spit and a 51 do it last night but chances are a slow spit will put up a fight and kill you. A slow 190 on the deck with you D600 or d400 on his 6 is not mach of a threat.

Cut your throtle enough and his friend is going to get you.

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2005, 07:53:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raider179
cutting your throttle sometimes doesnt matter as they seem to be going one way and then poof they flip and all of sudden they are going the opposite direction.

Thats why your cutting your throttle.
To stay behind them and pick your shots.

If your patient, and watch them carefully you will see that there will be brief moments when even when they flip and flop the center of the plane remains in the same place.

Also. They have to come out of it sometime.
All you really need to do is stay behind them:D

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2005, 07:58:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
OK OK OK, I am just saying that 190s are the best tool for it. I had a spit and a 51 do it last night but chances are a slow spit will put up a fight and kill you. A slow 190 on the deck with you D600 or d400 on his 6 is not mach of a threat.

Cut your throtle enough and his friend is going to get you.

Like I said. all you really have to do is stay behind them.

Odds are if your that fixated on the flip flipping plane his friend is going to get you anyway:)

Raider179 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2005, 08:01:43 PM »

yeah I know man but in anything over a 1 on 1 you cant be waiting around all slow for the stirrer to finish his move or his controls to lock, thats how you get picked off. I can usually beat a stick stirrer in a 1 on 1 but when its 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 then it becomes a problem. The main reason I made this post is just reiterate the problem still exists to HTC.

brendo · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2005, 08:56:18 PM »

I know that this is possible in AH.

I was in a Spit 14 chasing a Tempest in a furious battle.

I had hit him very hard, but whne I finally had him at 30 meter - 80 meters range, he did this bounce the place all over the place move, then broke away.

He did it a SECOND time, when I had him pegged shortly after.

ie, Normal manouvers until I KNEW he was mine, ready for the kill shot, then a super bounce movement up down, left right all over the place (within a sphere of about 2-3 wingspans).

In other words, the pilot knew how to force the AH software to bounce him all over the place.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 23, 2005, 01:10:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by brendo
In other words, the pilot knew how to force the AH software to bounce him all over the place.

And you know this, I assume, because you are either psychic or he admitted it?

Bah.

Whether it exists or not, you dont KNOW squat. You are assuming. Guessing. Whatever other word you would like to use in place of it. You have no idea if your statement is true or not, its a feeling you have. Its your opinion. Its very simple, its black and white here. Something is either a FACT, which means there is proof, or it is an OPINION. For all you know that guy was just trying desperately to get out of your gunsights, and lag either on your end or his made his plane make violent movements that couldnt be registered fast enough to be shown as they actually happened.

Quote

Originally posted by Dedalos
So????? why do I have to prove anything to you? Stick stiring is not new. Does not need to be proven. It is very easy to see. You say this is not to be taken peronally but you seem to have discredit everything I have ever said in any post. Where is your data that prove it does not happen? Just because a buff was warping it means 190s are not good at it? I would love to take this in a contructive maner but all I see critisism because you thought I was attacking HT. Again, I was defending them.

By the way, "Net Lag" does not explain everything in life.

You dont have to prove a thing to me. And again, I apologize if it seems I was attacking you. Sometimes when I try to make a point I do not always express what I mean to say in the right tone. You seem to have this backwards though. You are the one claiming a problem, YOU are the one who must provide data the problem exists. What the problem truly is, has not been expressed. Not by you, not by HTC. Some folks choose to call it "stick stirring", and say its intentional. I dont believe that. And no, again, you dont have to prove a thing to me. Its my OPINION. Just like your statement is an OPINION. Its not a fact, and you cant provide any evidence to make it one. Unless you have a confession from someone who knows exactly what he is doing, and tells you so, I seriously doubt you are going to. My only intention is to point this out to you. And that it does no good to make posts that point fingers at other players.

Net lag doesnt explain everything in life. Hehe. Comon man, you can do better than that.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2005, 06:08:35 PM »

SA2,
there are certian people that read these boards and say to them selves"hey I am going to try that / or start doing that" just by reading that people are snapping their plane into a viloent roll or flippity floppity way to make it cluster the packets/cause a lag issue and and warp or make someone on their 6 blow right by and they fall in right behind them.

this type of flying has grown like a contagious virus turning into an epidemic in the last 2 or 3 weeks in the MA .

post your address I will send you some films..........

I would think it is a safe bet that prob 1/3 of the in game flyers read these boards but only lurk, they never signed up / registered nor do they make any post here........then add to that flyers from other sims where this type of behavior is prob the norm and they come here and think there is no wrong in doing it, they actually think they are flying and OUTFLYING their opponent.

then their are the elustrious all mighty gamey gods of AH that do crap like this and praise themselves of being someone with a good rank.......

you can email me at tequilachaser(at)flyaceshigh(dot)com

and I'll reply with some films if you like

btw: last night in KOTH I saw 4 or 5 people try something like this but with the low alt most of them could not recover fast enough and augered..where as in the MA most times I run inot one of these cats it is above 10k alt...........the ones that practice this are the ones that recovery on the dime, the un intentional ones are the ones that usually auger.....that is my opinion

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2005, 06:47:11 PM »

You know, people are allowed to throttle back as you come in at 500 MPH from 20k feet...

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2005, 03:26:24 AM »

Late tonight and I need sleep. I will email you tomorrow TC, I'd appreciate the chance to see it up close.

IMO though, I see a big difference between someone who intentionally induces a spin, knowing proper recovery techniques, and uses it as ACM, and what they are calling "stick stirring". Acrobatic pilots induce spins and stalls all the time and come out with pinpoint precision. Just because WE dont see on our end what they are doing (because the lag makes the computers on each end confused by all the sudden changes in direction), doesnt mean it was invalid or cheating. What they are complaining about is someone who is TRYING to make the plane enter that flip-flopping and visually confusing movement in order to avoid being killed. I think there is also another group who is trying to avoid being killed, and just doesnt know the right moves so they try everything. This throws them into a spin and what we see is the flipping and flopping. I dont think its intentional. Since only the group that would be doing it intentionally could really be called "stick stirrers", how do you tell them apart? And do they really exist?

I'll be glad to watch the films. Maybe it will convince me. None of the ones I have seen so far convince me its more than an accident combined with lag to create akward visuals.

Tilt · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2005, 08:52:44 AM »

I have been chasing ac that when performing jink evasives seems to start a "tumble" with the axis changing from the tip of the left elevator to the tip of the right wing to an axis thru the tip of the right elevator to the tip of the left wing.

I wonder if the pilot actually sees on his FE what the chaser sees?

Can someone perform one off line and film it for us to view here?

If this is not possible (to recreate and film off line) then I would consider that what we see when chasing another pilot has been "modified" by net/network phenomenum.

dedalos · « **Reply #25 on:** January 24, 2005, 10:03:30 AM »

SA, just because you have not seen it, it does not mean it does not happen. I offered you the films. Give your email and I will send them.

Again, I am not trying to prove anything and don;t care to either. In my opinion, nothing can be done about it. I was just being part of the conversation and as always, someone jumps in and starts talking about proving things and things don;t exist cause I have not seen them and where is the film and . . .

Stik stiring is not an opinion. Its a fact. I can show you how to do it in the DA if you like, just so you can get an idea of what we are talking about.

rpm · « **Reply #26 on:** January 24, 2005, 11:47:02 AM »

I have had nme accuse me of "stick stirring" in my 109-f when all I did was an aileron roll with rudder added. As far as I know this is a fairly basic evasive maneuver. Your nme is not going to make slow, smooth turns that you can easily follow and lead your fire. If he does, he's an idiot.

Often when using manual trim in a hard evasive maneuver an aircraft will depart from controlled flight and flop around in an uncontrolled spin. This is not a desirable or premeditated move.
If you are fighting for control of your aircraft, you can't maneuver away from incoming fire.

The solution to an nme "stick stirring" is cut throttle and stay behind him. Having throttle to the firewall is not always the best thing. You set yourself up for the oldest trick in the book, the overshoot. You also can't get the maximum turning radius from your plane. Learn to manage your power and trim settings, you will be pleasantly surprised how much your k/d will improve.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #27 on:** January 24, 2005, 12:53:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2

IMO though, I see a big difference between someone who intentionally induces a spin, knowing proper recovery techniques, and uses it as ACM, and what they are calling "stick stirring".

I agree with you, there are like 3 types of players that do this type stuff"
#1- ones doing it knowing what they are doing ( used to call it Spin Fighting )

#2- those that do it thinking they are actually outflying you

#3- those that do it because they have no idea what to do and are panicing

Just because WE dont see on our end what they are doing (because the lag makes the computers on each end confused by all the sudden changes in direction), doesnt mean it was invalid or cheating.

I never said it was invalid or it was cheating

What they are complaining about is someone who is TRYING to make the plane enter that flip-flopping and visually confusing movement in order to avoid being killed. I think there is also another group who is trying to avoid being killed, and just doesnt know the right moves so they try everything. This throws them into a spin and what we see is the flipping and flopping. I dont think its intentional. Since only the group that would be doing it intentionally could really be called "stick stirrers", how do you tell them apart? And do they really exist?

you can usually tell if they did it intentionally or not after you shoot them down and recognize the gameid, you have flown here long enough to know who is who. Stick Stirers really do exist, because they lack the desire of wanting to learn how to become better........ The newer flyers that unintentionally do this are just that new, some will come around and learn a better way, then again some will not and those that don't will always remain a Stick Stirer!

I am not saying evasive maneuvers are not at faught here, I myself probably pull some hairpin turns and snaps, but flying against people like Flyboy, Rawr, Shane, 102Jish, and others...you see them do some sharp evasive turns and they look ( in the game ) to be smooth fluid like maneuvers, not irratic like someone who flips / flops.. also stick scaling/setting can play a big factor, in causing some irratic motion of flight

I class them in the 3 categorys I listed above, the knowing that do it on purpose, the clueless that think they are actually doing it right, and the new guys that have not learned yet

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 24, 2005, 01:49:50 PM »

Actually, I fly my plane to the brink of control if I'm in trouble. If I don't have the stall horn blaring and the plane trying to spin, I'm slacking off.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 24, 2005, 01:54:31 PM »

Alright. I suppose it seems I'm being stubborn. I probably am, it comes naturally to me. I guess its the fact that (in my mind) it would have to take some certian amount of skill to intentionally pull this off and still maintain control, if it is like it is being described to me. I'd like to think guys at that skill level would have more class than that. Really, I dont KNOW any more as a fact than any of you, so why am I arguing? Anyway, I hope the issue gets resolved to your satisfaction.